I've been a fishing lover since my childhood:

(How long has the shop been run?) Well, I am the second generation. So the shop has a rather long history. My father got independent of his master and had his own shop around the Kanto great earthquake. (This earthquake took place in 1913 in Tokyo and its environs.) Then he started his job at Ryuusenji. He ran both a wholesaler and a retailer. And then into my generation, I came to run only a retailer. (Is there any reason for that?) Well, it was difficult to make many rods, because I ran a shop at a time. And the social situation had changed. Carbon rods and glass fiber rods emerged, and sometime in old days wholesale dealers put their efforts particularly to them. (Because they were cheap?) Partly because they were able to be mass produced. And I guess they had another several reasons. And working with other shops would bother me, so…. When my companies wanted sell mine, I passed them. But I myself never did. Since I'm the second generation, we've been in this world fairly long. (Have you been using the name, Saotomi, since your father's generation?) Yes, that's right. My father's name was Tomizou. So he named it after his name. In my family, we used to repeat two names, Tomizou and Tomigorou, in turn. So my elder brother's name should've been Tomigorou, since I'm the second elder son. But it was out-of-date then. He preferred studying and chose to take that course. On the other hand, I've been a fishing lover since my childhood. So I made my mind to follow in my father's footsteps. It was quite natural to me. Soon after my graduation from junior high school, I started my career in this field. (How long have you been?) Well, I'm sixty two years old now. (You make rods sparing your time to go fishing?) I mean, I was apprenticed to the profession for four full years. During and after that, in my twenties, I went fishing quite often, because it would be an asset in the future. (You don't understand unless you do?) Right. Moreover, if I'm good at fishing, customers will trust me. For that reason, they allowed me to go out as long as I went fishing, 'cause it would make a future asset. So I went fishing very frequently. Originally my grandfather was a fishing lover, yeah. Well, my father experienced various things but eventually he ended up a "rod master". (Rod master!) Absolutely, we are "rod masters".

You have to change your rod according to fish:

(How about material now?) As for material, there're some in forest, but there're little people to cut them after all. We can cut bamboo only once a year. You shouldn't say you can cut them any time. Because of that, the cutter might find another job. In old days, off-season for farmers was the right moment to cut. From around November, bamboo starts to absorb less water. The bamboo cut at that point is the best one. We call it "after the first frost." Thus it can avoid nasty worms. For that reason, we cut it in early winter. Bamboo starts to absorb water relatively early, so around February it starts already. Generally, material comes from Kyushu area and Chiba, Kanagawa area. Ah, it depends on species. Arrow masters (arrow makers) use only "Yadake" (arrow bamboo), don't they? And we also use Yadake. We use young ones not so tight, that come up in spring and are cut in fall. Arrow masters use completely only several-year-old ones. We use old ones, and also young ones not so tight called "waka" (young). In short, longer rods tend to get heavier. If I use not so tight ones, rods become lighter. So we use young ones. (Species that doesn't get thick?) Basically, bamboo grows to the maximum thickness in a single year. So, bamboo with as thick as ten to fifteen centimeters in diameters or one with as thin as one millimeters, every bamboo reaches these thickness in a year. Older one doesn't mean thicker or longer one at all. (What kind of bamboo do you use?) Well, typical species are Yadake and Marubushi. Both are kinds of "Medake" (smaller kinds of bamboo). And Hotei-chiku, Hachiku. These are kinds of "Otoko-dake" (taller kinds of bamboo). As for Madake, generally, we split and carve it, and use it to a part so-called Kezurippo. We use Madake for this purpose. (What's Kezurippo?) We split bamboo and curve it into a round stick, and use it at the tip of a rod. That's Kezurippo. (Do you use different kinds of bamboo in a single rod?) In order to fish even the same kind of fish, we sometimes use different kind of bamboo. And there're many kinds of rods, 'cause you have to change your rod according to fish. Even if you catch the same kind of fish, the best rod varies according to the way you do. And even though you do it in the same way, there're various length of rods. So there should be many kinds.

We can enjoy a tug of huge one though fish is small:

Most of "Haze" (goby) rods are naka-toushi. Naka-toushi means, in short, a fishing line goes inside a cane. Well, some rods have rings outside the cane, but most of first-class rods are naka-toushi. This is one I'm making now. Fishing line will come out of this end, here. After all, naka-toushi rods don't get caught on something, 'cause rings aren't attached outside. So it's very easy to handle. Accordingly, most of Haze rods are naka-toushi, and it's a standard. (Goby is fished from a shore?) Right. Originally, fishing on board a ship was a standard way, but recently you fish it from a shore increasingly. In old days, fishing goby on shore was believed to be only for children and ladies, and we thought fishing on board a ship was the right way. Usually people started fishing it at the equinox. So we used to go fishing on the equinox. In old days, it was said that goby caught on the equinox will keep us away from palsy. (Is the fishing by professional fisherman the quite different world?) Well, "wazao" (Japanese-style fishing rod) is a tool of hobby. We're not gonna catch just bigger one, but we can enjoy a tug of huge one though fish is small. (That sounds fun!) So everyone get excited about fishing even fish like "Tanago" (broadstriped bitterling) as small as five to six centimeters, and some of them are only three centimeters. (Your hands can feel the move of fish through a rod!) Yes, exactly. Fishing of Tanago is the one of the oldest kind of fishing at Tokyo bay, isn't it? It's a kind of fishing, as it commonly said, that in ancient time a lord fished it using maid's hair as a fishing line and gold as a sinker. So it's a really good-luck fishing.

Some of foreigners, who are intelligent, understand Japanese fishing rod relatively:

(Are there any common rods to foreign ones?) Let me see…. It's not easy to find a common one. I mean, recently rods for fly-fishing or something like that are made also in Japan, so these ones are common. But what I make is only an absolutely Edo (the former name of Tokyo)-style fishing rod, indeed. But some of foreigners, who are intelligent, understand Japanese fishing rod relatively. (How?) Partly because of, in a sense, very technical factor, and partly they may look on it as extremely sensitive way of fishing. Anyway, I believe nobody can find any rods reaching this level in other countries. Lately you might see some rods copied in China, but these can't reach to the level of Japanese products. You won't find such a wonderful one anywhere around the world. (The one with a lot of works?) Yes. I hear that British has one for fly-fishing called Hardy, and you can have fairly good one in the United States. But it's probably impossible to find anything like this, that fully utilize an original shape of canes, and is sensitive and beautiful as well, yeah. (Do foreigners come and buy it?) Yeah, they've come several times. However, I think there's a problem what kind of fish they gonna catch with the rod in their own countries. But, the other day, a customer visited me, he is a president of a carbon rod maker, and bought a "Tanago" (broadstriped bittering) rod, in order to give it a person concerned over there as a souvenir. I've often experienced a kind of it. (A president of a carbon rod maker?) In a word, even though he brings a rod made with carbon or glass fiber to foreign countries like the United States, they won't be so happy with it. 'Cause "Japanese rods" indicate "cane rods". Basically, many of foreign rods are combined with joints. So rods with no joints, such as furidashi rod and so on, all originates in Japanese rod. (Is a furidashi rod one that several parts are fitting inside another?) Right.

When it comes to big one, beginners happen to catch it unexpectedly:

(What does the training begin with in tortoiseshell products?) We used to start out from how to sit cross legged. Young people aren't used to sitting in that style for a long time. It is only while you eat at the longest. It is pretty tough sitting like this from morning till night. That is probably the start. (What comes after sitting?) Then comes the detail work. We go out to get things, or else, we polish. We polish and polish from morning till night. (So the shaping comes after that?) Oh, not yet. A tortoiseshell craftsman has to learn how to make the raw material, how to make it hard. I told you before that we use water and heat. That is the basics of our job. So we put more than fifty percent into this part of the work. Then the shape and things like that rely totally on the person's feeling. You can't teach someone about these things, you know? Those who are good at imitating others are good with their hands. There are some kids who make their own by imitating others.

It's not accurate in measurement:

(What unit do you use to measure a rod?) I adopt the metric system now, but normally I should use "shaku" (A Japanese unit of measurement used in old days. One shaku is a little more than thirty centimeters, and about one foot.) But concerning fishing rod, it's not so accurate, though I said I adopt "shaku". So it's OK for us to have a margin of error from three to five "sun" (one "sun" is one tenth of one shaku.) Usually a "Funa" (crucian carp) rod is made of several canes cut into two shaku or about sixty centimeters. If I joint five canes, they'll make a nine shaku rod, six canes will make ten shaku, and seven will make twelve. In this process, it's quite natural to have some error. We don't care at all, 'cause it's the way we do. So it's not accurate in measurement.

Canes suitable for fishing rods(In what order do you make a rod?):

Well, the process is: first, "kiri-kumi". A rod is made with several canes. If I make a rod with ten canes, I need to prepare ten canes, and have to cut and shape them into appropriate length and shape, this is the first step, "kiri-kumi". Generally, we do it along with "hiire" (heating canes to straighten them). Next to it, I do "kiri-soroe" (to fix the length of each cane). Then, "ito-maki" (to wind a thread to a rod), "nuri" (to lacquer), and "tsunagi" (to joint). Lastly, I pour "urushi" (Japanese lacquer) on it over and over again. (holding a rod in his hand) This is one after finishing "ito-maki". Yeah, you can touch it. This thread is No. fifty count "Habutae" silk. (How thin!) I wind a thread in this way. And I pour Japanese lacquer on it, dry it to fasten it, and then joint them. There're also other small works as well. Originally, people who cut bamboo on business should bring them to us, but recently finding such people is so hard that sometimes we ourselves cut them. (Where do you find them?) Canes suitable for fishing rods are really limited among others. They must be good shape or rigid or have joints in good intervals…, the best one varies according to what kind of rod I make. It means they are what I call Miss Japan in a Bamboo world. (laughing) We try to find such ones. (A work only during fall can't exist?) No, for people who cut them. (Is the work paid for by the piece?) Right, and it's also a considerably hard work, actually. They cut them and carry them out of mountains.

The most important point is its balance:

(What rod is good?) Rod's evaluation depends on each customer's taste, and generally it's hard to tell this one is good, or that one is good. But, of course, I can say it depends on what kind of fish you gonna catch. And the most important point is its balance. I mean, a rod making a turn in a shape of a letter "ku" (to make a turn with an angle) isn't good. It has to make a natural curve. There're various kinds of curves, such as a big entire curve and a curve at the top end. So in conclusion, balanced rod is the best one. And I'm sure that one with little peculiarities in handling is good also.

Do it ourselves from the beginning to the end:

(Can I take it away in this way?) Sure. Basically, the way you've done is the best way. If you pull it straight, sometimes it gets a curve a little bit, doesn't it? Then it'll be damaged, so turn it around. (How beautiful!) It can be even more beautiful, 'cause there're shells around here. (Shells?) Yes, I put "chou-gai" (a pearl oyster shell) here. It'll glitter with reflecting light. Right, it's "Raden" (a mother-of-pearl-work). As a matter of fact, we rod masters do such works by our own way to some extent. And as for our lacquering, originally it comes from mostly both work of Kabuki's stage properties and of sheaths of Japanese swords. (You do both of them?) Well, I learned it from my father, and I stayed at one of the same profession's for four full years and learned the master's way. (You lacquer it yourself?) Exactly. As to our work, we usually do it ourselves from the beginning to the end and don't share work.

Gonna display them and enjoy both using and looking at them:

(Does this price make young people hesitate to buy it?) Well…, not exactly. Look at this one. it's a "Haze" (goby) rod. A young man has bought it. He pays twenty thousand yen in monthly installments. By the time I finish it, the payment will finish as well. (How many months does it take to be finished?) Even though I have an order, it's a little hard to start immediately because of various preparations. So sometimes you might have to wait for six months or one year. Well, then, he said he was in no hurry, and I said, "Well, how about paying as much as twenty thousand in installments?" And he said he appreciated it, so it's worked. In this way, he's gonna pay over two hundred thousand yen for two rods. (Does he transfer the money into your account?) No, I say, he visits me to hand it and enjoy talking. It seems to me transferring is not so…, for us, uh…. You know, he comes over here and enjoys talking, and thus we feel getting closer every time he visits, don't we? (It sounds great!) I have a plenty of customers like him. Some pay the money as much as two to three hundred thousand yen all at once in a cash. But I welcome the customers, who visit me every month and pay a little amount of money in installments month after month. Young people pay one hundred thousand yen immediately? I think it's impossible. During a good economy, you might be able to pay in one lump sum with your bonus, but recently times aren't so good. (I heard that generation around thirties tends to pay much money for valuable things. Do they?) Yes, they do. This man says he wants another one after these rods. He's gonna display them and enjoy both using and looking at them. I think it's so nice. And it's also necessary to enjoy looking at them. (Does demand change according to the times?) Yeah, it changes. In old days, I made the overwhelming numbers of "Haze" rods in the aspect of annual produce. The season of goby fishing used to start at the autumnal equinox in September and it continued until the year-end. Concerning goby fishing, since competitions held very often, people repeated giving their orders, saying "Please make another one, please make another one," looking for ones fit their taste more. And there were fairly many popular rods for beginners. Lately, "Kawahagi" (filefish) fishing attracts a great number of people. (Do fishing have been going in a fad?) Well, lure fishing is popular among young generation. But as for our kind of rod, it's leveled off generally. At one time, it got less popular, but recently, we've gained deeper understanding again, and it's recovered to this level.

For craftsmen, the life indicates continuous learning:

(Is there a talk about a fishing rod other than about fishing?) Yes, there is. We ourselves aren't always know much about every kind of fishing. Sometimes I have to ask the fishing circumstance about certain fish from our customers, it helps me to build my knowledge, and I wanna make a rod that meets customer's request as much as I can. They say that for craftsmen, the life indicates continuous learning, and I totally agree to it. We should be careful not to be complacent. However, it's not always good to comply with everything customers say. It's need to keep my own value to some extent. Anyway, it's easy to know who made a certain rod, 'cause it's branded. But even though we don't see it, it's easy to tell who made it, as long as it's made by the hands of best rod masters. I'll say, "This one is made by Mr. So-and-so," then you'll reply "Yes, certainly."

Rods made by other person:

(Do you repair as well?) Of course, I do. (You repair also one that other person made?) Sure, I do. After all, someone might repair my rods in some case, so I myself repair rods made by other craftsmen, too. But in case I don't have proper material or have only different material, 'cause I haven't made such a kind of rod at all, I can't help but abandon. I try to do as much as I can. But since I repair it with my own skill, I'm not sure if it's the best way, but there's no other choice.

It's a world of hobby:

(Are there collectors of "wazao" or Japanese-style fishing rods?) Yes, there are. For a long time, there've been lovers and they've been collecting them. In old days, we saw lovers who sought really good things. They kept waiting for one year, much more they did five to six years. If you go to a fishing tackle museum or a kind of it, you'll see a rod of a long year's work. So, some of them are really expensive. Usually rods are practical tools and the price should be limited. But, in old days, some rods were as expensive as a house was. (Rods made by the ancient best masters?) Yeah, yeah. Actually, it's a world of hobby. They didn't care how long it took, kept waiting until they had the one they liked. I have a longtime customer who orders four to five rods a year. It's been more than ten years since he came to my shop for the first time. (Does he go fishing also?) Yes, he does. So, you know, he must have enough rods for fishing, 'cause kinds of fish he catch are limited. Still he orders every year. (He might polish them at home?) Sometimes I feel difficulty responding his order. "What kind of rod shall I make next? I've already made this rod and that one and so on." The other day, I made a tremendous one. It is so strange that I've never made. I know the customer's make-up well thanks to our longtime relation. It was as long as this length. (spreading his arms) I joined four of them and attached guides on it, 'cause he ordered to make it "Soto-toushi". (Fishing line goes outside of a rod, not inside.) And put a reel made of ivory at its handle. I believe that rod must be the ultimate symbol of a world of hobby. (Do some people ask to put a diamond on it?) Well, basically we can use silver as material, but we don't use gold so often. When it comes to using gold, I think it gets a little gaudy, yeah. It gets less chic. So when I can't avoid using gold, I put it, for example, as thin as a line. As for silver, I use oxidized one.

Baleen of whale caught in the old days:

This is the best baleen of a black right whale. Baleen of a whale caught in the old days. We can't have new ones, because whaling is totally banned now. And concerning a black right whale, it's said they're probably wiped out even though you don't catch them any more at all. I hear that it was species with the greatest utility value. You know, a spring of a "Karakuri ningyou" (a traditional Japanese clockwork doll), that was made of baleen of a black right whale. A black right whale's baleen is long and relatively straight so that you can use it as material of a spring. A blue whale is a huge kind of whale but its baleen is short. (Does The Washington Treaty cover a whale?) I'm not saying about the treaty, but nobody catch whales with baleen, don't they? Well, I've heard that Inuit is allowed and hunts several a year, but it's not clear what kind of whale it is. Anyway, we recognize very well that we can't have any more, and I think we shouldn't catch them even breaking law. So, I use baleen in stock I got long time ago little by little. (Do you have enough of them?) Well, I'm running out black right whale's. (Are there any substitutes?) Actually, there is a substitute, but I'm not gonna use other material as long as I keep real baleen. So, I always use baleen, especially black right whale's one for first-class rods. (Are they expensive?) Yeah, I think its cost price is about ten times as expensive as baleen of other one's. (Are rods using baleen the most expensive ones among other rods?) No, the most expensive rod, considering a price of rod itself, is a rod jointing a lot of parts. The highest quality of this kind is even more expensive. But baleen is considerably expensive as a material of a rod. Even though you use titanium, the price can't be as expensive as twenty thousand or thirty thousand yen, while baleen costs twenty to thirty thousand yen easily. When it comes to thick one, it will cost fifty to sixty thousand yen. But, in my case, fortunately I've already kept them enough to use during my generation, so I don't offer so expensive price. As a matter of fact, I'm offering this one for ten thousand yen, but if I buy baleen now and make this one, this price would be impossible. Only the cost of baleen would be about fifty thousand yen. (Can you left them to your successors?) Well…, the issue of successors is…, actually rather difficult so far. You know our economic situation is severe. I myself have two sons, but both work in different fields. One is an office worker, another is working in a company as a craftsman. If it's possible, I'd like to train them in near future when they get a little older, so that they can be independent in this field in the future, but so far, not yet. Our industry also have this kind of big trouble of few successors. (Do you have to learn enormous things to become an excellent craftsman?) That's right. Generally, after about ten-years work you'll be skilled and independent. But after that it'll be quite a difficult way. In short, the key point is whether you'll be able to make rods that can meet a customer's request, isn't it? And how you'll get trust of customers. I mean, no matter how wonderful rods you've been making in real, it makes no sense unless customers recognize them.

I sometimes try other one's rods:

(Are there a lot of the same professions?) Generally, we're divided in two, some work in a city, and some in local towns. Well, when I say local towns, they're quite near. So, I guess there'll be thirty or so of our kind of craftsmen. I know several craftsmen are in Kawaguchi. Taking them into account, it'll be more. So-called "Tokyo-craftsman" are getting fewer. Also in Kawaguchi, it's decreasing. In old days, we shared works, like "Tokyo-craftsman for the first class rods, craftsman in Kawaguchi for popular ones." But recently, they've learned quite a lot and they're making good things. In a word, as long as finished rods are fine, nobody cares. (Can you find a craftsman's feature in a rod?) Everyone has his own feature. So I sometimes try other one's rods. Then I can feel their good point or something like that very well. Obviously, I can't deepen my understanding if I use only mine. It varies. There's one for really practical use, and there's one rather to look at. It means everyone has his own strength. The best ones of each craftsman are made in a very wonderful way and they teach me a lot. (Do you recognize their feature automatically?) A craftsman makes what's he good at a lot, and he knows much about the fishing of his kind of fish. So once I use these rods, it' easy to understand the good feature of the rods that I couldn't understand from the outlook. (How about your rod?) Since I myself went fishing quite a lot, I think I make a lot of rods for practical use. But make-up is also important to some extent, isn't it? (laughing)

I really enjoy, (laughing) this job:

(How many do you make a year?) Well, I think about fifty to sixty. I don't make so many. Well, I know I can't save a lot of money, but I enjoy my favorite job. (Favorite job?) I really enjoy, (laughing) this job.