Grandfather was the first generation, I was the second, son was the third
(How long since the inauguration?) (Father) My grandfather was the first generation of the inauguration of the enterprise, I was the second, and my son was the third. The inauguration was established in the year Showa 8. So, 67years. (Has the father been working since childhood?) (Father) Yes. (How about your son?) He did not start this job when he was a kid. But he has been here for nearly 10 years. (Are there any troubles finding the successors?) Yes, there are a lot. (Are there a lot who come back from the work?) Yeah, there are a few who graduated college, starting work from elder age. (How about your son?) My son graduated the industrial arts high school in Iidabashi, because he was majoring in woodworking. He was pretty fast. He had learned for about 5 years since the time our grandfather of the first generation was still alive. He is pretty useful because his work became really smooth. (How old is he?) 38, 38. (Son) I was born in the year 1965. (Father) Oh, your were born in 1965. Sorry! I shouldn't forget my son's age. (Is your son also a professional?) Yeah. It has been told that one must work for ten years to become a professional, but that's perfectly true. The process of examining the ingredients is really painstaking. One starts from that, and when he manages to do it, he is a professional. Well, that means to everything, not just furniture.

Mulberry is the best
(You have most of the materials?) (Father) Yes. I have to dry them before using the wood. If I don't have the materials, maintaining of the materials would be really hard. Well, I think it's not only the furniture. For the furniture, the maintaining would be really difficult too, if there are no materials. We only use the home products to make these Edo piece. Japanese materials. (You don't use Karaki (imported materials)?) No, that's more professional. (What kind of materials do you like?) (Son) Well, I like everything in general. Zelkova is pretty good, and mulberry is the best. That's quite rare too. (Are there any trees that you have difficulty using?) Yeah, unexpectedly the Japan cedar is pretty hard to process. A straight grain is not that hard, but when it is cut horizontally, there are soft parts and hard parts, which makes it hard to cut. The sprout is hard but the parts surrounding it is soft, and is hard to cut.

That's why it becomes such thing as an ornament in the hotel
(What are the good sales products recently?) (Father) Tables are good these days. (Tables?) "Fuzukue."(reading tables) and some dining tables are also sold these days. (Are "Nagahibachi"(long blaziers) more of a hobby?) "Nagahibachi" are bit expensive, and not practical also. That's why the become such things as ornaments in a hotel. They are usually put in the lobby because they are not practical. Back then, everybody wanted blaziers, but there are some people who just put them back in the closet.

Craftsmen don't usually have money
(Have you been working since you graduated school?) (Son) Yes. (Did you obviously think that this would happen?) Yeah, I guess. I didn't dream to be a business man. I thought this job was interesting as I saw my preceeding generations. (Did you like to construct?)) Well, not really. When I just saw it first, I thought it was really an easy job. But you actually get stuck in the beginning. Within these 15,16 years, I improved enough to make my satisfying shape, and to read into the materials. I finally realized the fun of this lifetime job. (Do craftsmen earn a lot of money?) No, and I knew that this is not a money-making job. Well, I think it's not only about the money, even though I am now barely managing to live. (Father) Craftsmen are people who don't have money, definitely. (Did you drink?) Sashimono workers were in the past really, really poor. They often appear in historical dramas. Craftsmen like "tatami"workers and fishmongers used to live in a tenement house. There were holes between the walls and you could see the room next to yours. It was horrible back then. But on the other hand, the living itself was really easygoing. (Son) Well, the fun of woodworking lies in Sashimono, constructing woods without using nails. Now there is this one youngster who's been coming for about a year. It's not going to be like the old days, but just as an industry, he needs to be raised, just like me. I think there are many young people who are willing to do this. I think there should be a training vocational school, in order to make this as an industry. It should not be like"it's alright that craftsmen don't have money," which is an idea of the old days, but it should be an industry. (Is this going to change as the time goes by?) But there is nothing we can do about the high cost, because handmade takes so much time and work. Looking at our number of products, it is better to use machineries, but from choosing the materials to finishing up, we concentrate really hard, so they become products of a high-grade quality and high price. We take our price as the borderline, so there is nothing we can do about it.�@But wedding furniture that represented those days, such as cupboards and dressing tables no longer exist today. There were shops that only made cupboards and dressing tables, but those were not enough to make a living out of them. I think that we were able to survive because we had this style of making any orders we got. Our livings have changed a lot as the time passed by, and we have to make joineries that fit the generation. Even if you said "I used good woods for this cupboard," there are no style of using them these days. But something that can replace the cupboards, like furniture similar to "Daikokubashira (furniture similar to central pillars)," would fit European-styled room, with traps made from high-quality joinery skills and they have good designs. (Do you feel good when young people think that handmade things are cheap?) A car becomes a trash after ten years, and computers get wasted in three or four years. We are buying and throwing garbage. For us, furniture like that one over there have been used for many decades, and if they are maintained, we can give that to our grandson. Most things can be recycled and used. (Have the number of people using old furniture decreased?) (Father) Yes. (Do children throw things away because they hate something that is old?) We teach and appeal to them that such things have existed in the past and that Japanese tradition must be kept. But there are young people who like the old stuff, saying that they are tasteful. People age, so we try to sell our works to as many young people as possible. But young people don't get it. It is the psychology of human beings that when people are over 60, they decorate their rooms with these high-quality works. Before 60, they can't do anything about in spite of their desire, because they have to raise their children. I had this one customer yesterday, who wished to buy a table. But she had kids of 5 and 3 years old, so I refused myself to sell the table, because I know that their children will damage it. The father said something that he really wanted the table, but I refused. (But can't you repair the table if it's damaged?) Yes, but children in elementary and middle school need a lot of money, right? The education fee and all that. So they can't manage their money for these furniture.

He is the first young leader
(Your son is the most dynamic young master out of more than forty doors!) (Father) No, my son is famous in the association, and he is the first young leader. They say he has a bright future. My grandfather used to be a kuwamonoshi (high-class mulberry worker). People back then graduated elementary school after third grade, and they served in the master's apprentice. That's why they improve. And the rest depends on their skills. (Have you ever majored in woodworking in your school?) (Son) I have learned woodboard-making, but it was only of a high-school level. They taught us basic things academically like plane-grinding and chisel-beating, but on the other side, we don't need academics, and "just carve" is our way of working. "This makes it beautiful, so just carve" is how we teach. And when you actually work on it, you know that academics don't really matter. But it's good to know whether you need that or not.

We should make something with a theme
(Is that central pillar your son's design?) (Father) We got this huge citation as a selected work in the National Legendary Industrial Arts Gallery. (What was the cause of making this?) (Son) I was talking with my friends that we should make something with a theme, and we came to conclusion that we'd make a central pillar. There are no pillars in modern houses that are constructed by 2X4's, right? I had a Japanese pride in central pillars. And so I wished this central pillar, which is no longer used, to be put in the center of the house. I made several traps and mechanisms on the pillar to store valuable stuffs inside. The visual appearance looks like a pillar cut in half, and I made it thinking that it would be interesting if you can see the inside of it. (What kind of mechanisms did you make?) The four drawers has a common keyhole, and you can take them out as a "drawer box". There is another one, where the separating board in the middle of the drawers also come out and form a small box, and there is one where the short diagonal boards supporting the bottom drawer also come out. (Did you make just one?) (Son) No, they have been sold pretty well, and I was able to sell three in the month I put a lot of effort into. (Are a lot sold?) About ten or so. (What kind of people buy them?) Middle of advanced aged women buy the most. That covers about 70% of the customers, and the rest are men.

Our works are just usable tools, not art.
(You know how American museums purchase works? Is it also like that in Japan?) (Son) Famous people do that in Japan, but unknown craftsmen like us don't do that. (Do famous people make "art"?) Yes, art. There are many in the past, too. I think woodworkers, who have exhibited their works to the exhibition in Paris for the first time, are world-famous. I think such works are bought among us. Works of normal craftsmen, like us, don't go into exhibitions. You have to keep on exhibiting for about 20, 30 years in order to be famous. That's why our works are just usable tools, not art. People say that our works are artistic and of a high-quality because they are handmade, we paint and use good woodboards. That furniture is made from wood called "tamo" and you have to go to wood market and ask "can I have good woods if you have any?" But today, it's not that easy like the old days. (Isn't it better to show the name of the maker on the product?) Yes, maybe. (Are most of the furniture you design fit for European-style room?) No, not necessary. The one I'm making right now is a backstage dressing table, and it is used by Kabuki actors in their dressing room. (Is that an order?) No, it's for an exhibition. There is a Kabuki exhibition in a department store, and it's for that. I met the actor the other day and he let me show the dressing room. I asked him questions, and he said that designs have not been decided, and said that he will make it the way he wants.

I still make mistakes when I am careless
(How long have you been working?) (Son) About 16 years. (Was it interesting?) There was a time when it was not interesting. Like a garbage can, a mirror-stand, a small garbage can, a small phone-stan and more. I made these small things over and over for about 2,3 years. (Do you get tired of it?) But I still get irritated of the feeling that I get tired of it, and of the feeling that I want more skills. (Can you modernize?) Well, we cannot make everything made out of automation, but compared to 20,15 years ago, woodworking machineries have helped us do rough-pickings and rough-carvings. (Do machineries do all the work?) No. Of course, we need manual works. But compared to before, we use machines to decide the thickness instead of using planes and that makes the work much easier. (Did the working time shorten?) Umm, I am sure about that. We take time in making designs, like traps and mechanisms. (Do you do coatings at home?) No, I take those out to other shops. I paint and do coatings for small objects, but I take most of them out. The painters' warehouse is also interesting because you see portable shrines and carriages upside down. That is also a place where we exchange information regarding our business, and I get to see other people's joineries when I go there. It's interesting to go to those places, and coating skill done by professionals is much better there too. At least, they are better than me. Well, I think there are people who think that it is better to do coating by themselves, and that they like their own works better. (Do you learn from the others?) Substantially, yes. Looking from a wide point of view, there are many points when we can accumulate from any kind of business as we learn many things.

I thought he was studying, but he was really playing a game
(Father) Most of my customers say "Your son made this, right?" That is because their sense is very young. These sell really well. Old ones don't sell good. (Do you have times when you feel why such things were made?) I say that these things won't be sold, and the leftovers won't do us any good, but it's just the opposite. They sell. (Did you buy a computer?) (Son) I went to Akihabara to get it. (How about your father?) (Father) No, I know nothing about it. I can't use machines. My son went instead. He is studying it right now. People of my age will never get it because we can't understand machines. But when it comes to people of my son's age, it's okay. Today, even elementary students are learning. Even 6th graders, because I saw a computer when I visited my relative's house. It's interesting for the 6th graders because they can play games with the computer. That's both good and bad. They eat rice cookies and play games until late at night. We are distressed because we can't sleep. When I go the kid's room at 2:00 in the morning, thinking he is studying, but he was really playing games. That's nice.