We take most of the share.
(Are there a lot of people making "oroshi-gane"(a grater)?) Not anymore, from these kinds. But just recently, they have been making many different kinds. This is my specialty now. (Have you been making "oroshi-gane" from generation to generation?) Well, I am still the second generation. To sum it up, this business is called "Doukoya" , who are copper processing craftsmen. You can see it on the other side of my card. (Do you have the same kind of work as Mr. Hoshino?) Yes, we have the same occupation. He made those kinds of ornaments, and we made pans and pots. We also used to work in Asakusa, but moved after the war. (Are "oroshi-gane" made out of copper?) Yes. It's copper plated with silver. (Are you now a specialty in "oroshi-gane"?) Yes. (And pots and pans?) Well, that's only when I get the orders, like when there is an event in a department store, you know? I take them only in those occasions, and only these "oroshi-ganes" are the ones we have on sale now. (Are your "oroshi-gane" dominating Japan?) Ours are definitely outnumbering. (Champion of "oroshi-gane"!!) Yes, yes. We take most of the share. (Do you have logos of your shop?) No, ours are OEM. We just put the name of the customer. When there are orders, we just stamp with our die, but besides that we put the name of the shop that we order from. So the products you see in the department stores and in shops in Tsukiji and Kappa-Bashi are all our products. (Do you change your design depending on the OEM of the customer?) No. (What about the shape?) They are all the same. But orders come, saying that they want shapes like a rectangle and a circle. (Are those individual orders?) No, from shops. For example, a famous cooking school orders rectangular shapes. (The turtle-shaped ones are cute!) Yes, but those are not on the market yet.

We beat it with a chunk of metal this big.
(You worked in Asakusa before the war, and now you work in Nerima?) No, that is just my residence. I used to work in Ikebukuro just recently, but it's not possible in a place like that, right? So I moved here. We hit and beat this plate to make it hard. We beat it with a chunk of metal this big. We make these small graters and turtle-shaped graters by punching through the copper plate. (Do they make big noise?) That's why this can't be done in Tokyo. So these are done in the urban areas, and are sent here. (Do "oroshi-gane" craftsmen just put up the teeth?) Yes, I guess. Well, people who make these unprocessed, punched-through plates used to work here with us. But I asked them to go to country side and do the work there, where it's large and open. (Are your skills similar to that of a file, in a way you make your teeth?) Yes, by hitting with a chisel. I will show it to you now.

You see how these teeth are lined irregularly?
(What is this for?) It is for "wasabi". (Does the number of metallic "oroshi-gane"s decrease as the time passes by?) Do you mean the sales? They are really bad for these one or two years. (Why?) That is because the company also pays for the social expenses. (Even though the things aren't bought from social expenses?) These all go to high-class restaurants. What I am saying is that our "oroshi-ganes" are used by places where we don't spend our own money to eat and drink. That is why we have so much damage effects. (So it's a high-class product in a way?) That's true, yes. (How much does this cost now?) This costs now 7000en. But we just cannot depend on those points anymore. (Is this a must-have item for cooks?) Yes, they only use this. This side is for grating radish, and the other side is for wasabi. They must use this to grate a hon-wasabi. (a real horse radish). They don't use plastic ones. (So the combination between metals and vegetables is good?) Well, this copper we are using is a perfect metal to use with hands, like its hardness and extension. We made this by hands, and you see how these teeth are lined irregularly? These cut well. Wasabi must be grated with these small teeth in order to get the smell and the sharp taste. They get grated in big pieces when you do it with plastic ones, and can't get the sharp taste either. So the restaurants that use hon-wasabi must use this all the time. Sushi restaurants that use hon-wasabi are only that of the high-class, right? All those places cannot be used by the social expenses. The more famous the restaurant is, the more they get depressed. (Doesn't this last for a long time?) Yes, and we were thinking that those high-class restaurants were really reliable.

Only water comes out if you just put all your force when grating.
Somehow, these square-shaped ones are sold a lot. There are many people opening cooking classes for housewives who have time. They come and buy these. (Do people go to cooking classes and buy "oroshi-gane"?) Yes. (Are these long "oroshi-gane"s?) Yes. (Can you get a lot of grated radish at a time from this?) They got to be cut well to taste good. Only water comes out if you just put all your force when grating. But with these sharp edges, radish can be cut well containing water inside. That's why it's delicious. (Are there many teeth?) Yes. (Easy to grate?) It's really easy. (But it looks expensive!) I think you can buy this in department stores for 7700en. They are advertised often in female magazines. (But men would also love these, don't you think?) Well, I think the men who have started cooking would have interest in these expensive "oroshi-gane", pots and pans. Beginners start by choosing the tools. (To make them feel like a professional cook?) That's why they don't say out the price. It's a thing of a good quality. (What is the name of this?) It's just called "hakogata", box-shaped. (Box-shaped "oroshi-gane"?) Yes. It hasn't been decided that SONY sell these, but a person from SONY saw this, and you know they are doing a mail order business, right? They want to sell this. (SONY sell only expensive things with mail order business?) I heard so. So they want to add something to this and sell it as a set. (With the wasabi grater?) Yes, we are thinking about that.

I succeeded after quitting my job as a business man.
(Did you make these pots when you were young?) No, I came in the middle after quitting my job as a business man. I succeeded the house after my job as a business man. (How old were you?) I was a business man for ten years. (Has it been a long time since you became an "oroshi-gane" craftsman?) Yes. (Are you proud of that?) Well, I guess so. Good thing that I did not have to leave my home and work alone. You normally have to experience that when you work for a company. (Were there transfers in your company?) Yes, all around Japan. (Are there many sons of the craftsmen who work for a company for two or three years, and then come back to this work?) Yes, because they don't fit to an organization. (Did you use to help out since you were a kid?) Not since when I was young, but I was watching the work. (Is your father dead?) Yes, it was a long time ago. He was eighty-something. He was working until he was over eighty and until two years before his death. (And what about your son?) No, he is not working yet. So we don't have a successor now. (I am not trying to be impolite, but it is really strange that there is a job of making only "oroshi-gane"!) Well, from us to people working in the country side, we were really anxious whether we could continue this for this long. (But big enterprises don't come in?) This is not the business where the enterprises can sell many numbers. We can't sell as many as the big enterprises. So it doesn't really matter. There are no competitions, and it's just like the wind bell sellers. They can dominate the industry because there are no big enterprises selling wind bells. (Most of the people don't know where the real things are, and they only see the substitute of them. So that must be the reason why they feel they are so expensive, even though they are really not. Or?) Yes, I think so.

When my back and fingers start to hurt.
(Isn't it hard-work?) Well, yes. But I learn the work naturally as I get used to it. But things that torment me are when my back and fingers start to hurt. I am always in the same stance, right? But by the time that pain heals, my skills are improved. That is the hardest part. (Sashimono workers just sit flat on the floor.) We used to sit on the floor too, and work on lower stands. It was easier for me to work sitting on the stand, so it became sitting stance.

So we make about four different kinds depending on the orders we get.
(Do the teeth have names depending on the kinds?) No, there aren't, but we can tell that the biggest one if for grating radish. A tooth that is bigger than that is called "oni-koroshi." Small ones are in order from yams, ginger, and wasabi. So we make about four different kinds depending on the orders we get. From sushi-restaurants that use only wasabi, we put teeth for wasabi on back and front of the grate. If orders were from restaurants specialized in grated yam, they order "oroshi-gane" for a taro. If they don't say anything, we just sell it as it is. (Normal families have one big and one small grates?) We can't feel the seasons these days, but before when it's around May, bonitos come out, right? Then "oroshi-gane" for ginger are sold a lot. (Are there effects when the economy is bad?) We would be bored if we just depend on the business use. So for family use. (Do the shape of teeth differ depending on the vegetables?)No, they are the same. (Do the teeth's roughness differ?) Yes.

Now, work starts right away.
(With what are going to start with your training?) Practice starts right away. (Right away?) Yes. Do you see these cutting edge? Then the teeth are made. (How long do you need to be able to make that?) Before making an "oroshi-gane," we needed to make a chisel first, which means that they had to start from zero, right? That took time. Now, work starts right away. We must make the manufacturing process detailed, and just practice and memorize one part as hard as possible. Then go to the next step. (Do boss adjust all the work?) Yes, that's true.

Around the Nara Period.
(Is the history of "oroshi-gane" old?) People from the Gakushuin University came here a long time ago, we talked and they researched about it. They said that "oroshi-gane," not this one, was made first around the Nara Period. The shape now was the same as the shape printed in the section of Edo Period in an encyclopedia. (This shape?) Yes, yes. It has been simplified and we just decide the size by the number, but back then, we used to call them by their weight. But copper was also valuable at that time, right? There was no skill to do the pressing back then, so people had to beat the clod of copper, like this, stretch it and judge its weight. Now everything is standardized and made in a factory. (What is that machine that is covered by a blanket?) I use that for other works. The rest are beating machines. So now, we just can't move to the country side and work because we need to have the right and permission to do such a loud work. (Is that so loud?) Well, it's a different story if you have a big land. You won't believe how loud it is. (Is that same as the plane craftsmen?) You saw that, right? The machine that just keeps on beating. We are using the same one as that. We also use the cutting machine, and many more. (Are those used in the country side?) Yes, in the country side. I ask the employee, who used to work here, to do that and send the products here.

All the works are getting specialized.
Before I used to make washing sinks, and many other things. But the number of people making these things decreased, so I started to concentrate in this. So if our friends order two or three "oroshi-gane," we make the products for them, and other workers make some for us too. We do it that way. All the works are getting specialized.