There're various mechanisms. It's a "funa-dansu."
("Funa-dansu" is a chest used on a ship in the old days.) It's made with solid keyaki (a Japanese tree of the genus Zelkova), not plywood. (Are you going to put metal parts on it?) Yes. (It's great to be made with solid keyaki, isn't it?) Right, its market price is about 3.2 million yen. (Is it a chest put on a ship?) It was a safe used on a "kitamae-bune" (Kitamae refers to the Sea of Japan. Ships that were sailing on the Sea of Japan were called this way by people in Osaka and Kyoto area.) You can't open this drawer. You see, this one is bigger than the space. And you can't pull it out unless you take this panel out. But it's impossible to take the panel out, heh heh heh. There're various mechanisms. You can open it unless you put all the panels to this side. (So it works as a safe!) It has double and triple mechanisms. It's first time for me to make this kind of thing. I figured out that maybe I managed to make it in this way or something like that. Actually, it was far more than that. It required more than double procedures. (The mechanism is known widely?) Yes, we know it. We make keys and locks upon orders, too. And it takes one year to complete them. I also order every each nail by hand. And color it in a special method in old days, which now we call plating. (Are there any other people who make funa-dansu?) I know people in Fukui and Yamagata prefectures. I think we can't make so many.

This is "tama-moku,"
that refers to "moku" (grain) of "tama" (dot pattern). This is the "naga-hibachi" (a rectangular Japanese-style brazier). A TV station reported this one, perhaps it was on January 4, and I got five orders. The price is 1.6million yen. You know, one of the orders is extraordinary. Look, this one filled with "tama-moku" pattern (beautiful grain with dot pattern of small swirls) and this is keyaki. I bought it for that order. If we sawed it to a panel, the price would be 1 million yen. I'm going to make one by September upon that order. Well, the whole tree will cost 100 million yen. (Wow!) Only a cost! (laughing) (Have you chosen it because of the grain?) That's right, the customer designated it. He said he wanted to have "tama-moku" like this one. This is "tama-moku," that refers to "moku" (grain) of "tama" (dot pattern). It's precious. Recently we rarely see them. (You can't predict grain until you cut a tree?) No, we can't. Well, however, as for trees, bark or outlook generally tells its inside precisely. Generally speaking, if you see knobs on bark like these, they also make "tama" (dot-pattern). (On the outside?) Yeah, bark is popping at the knobs, and if you pluck the bark off, you'll see swirls that look like fingerprints of human. And they make "tama" and they continue all the way to the core. (How old is this one?) I'm not sure. Well, I didn't see the whole tree. I just got only this one. And the entire tree costs 100 million yen. (Ten panels like this can come out of a single tree?) More than ten can do. The tree is much more broader one. And I got just one piece from near outer bark. (Where did the tree come from?) Well, I haven't heard where it'd come from. (But somewhere in Japan?) Yes. (Are there such trees still now?) Yes. (This part has a different color?) I applied solution to prevent from cracking, yeah. If you dry wood immediately, it'll have a narrow crack. (Do you have chemical for the purpose?) No, it's not chemical but glue. (Glue?) Right. You know, I apply a film of glue. If you dry it too fast, it easily gets a crack. (And then, you plane it out?) Yes, I plane it. After planing, it becomes just clear.

I buy most materials directly from mountains.
(Is there a lumberman specialized in furniture?) When it comes to what is specialized in Japanese furniture, there is only one in Tokyo, I think. (Most of "sasimono-ya", or cabinetmakers buy materials in that store?) Yes, mostly we buy them there. And also from stores dealing with high quality lumbers. Plus, I ask them to allow me to attend a market of raw materials. In my case, I buy most materials directly from mountains. All the lumbers downstairs are gained that way. I did it most frequently from 1963 to 1965 and then over about 1975. Yeah, I visited Yamagata, Akita and Aomori (prefectures in northern Japan) about every two months, because I had a kind of channels. We were competing in visiting, and bought raw materials, sawed them and brought them here. (Did you deal with sawmills?) No. Not with sawmills but with brokers of raw materials. Well, in other word, with "yama-shi." (laughing) (An original meaning of "yama-shi" is a person ("shi") who sells trees in mountains ("yama"). But it also refers to a speculator.) ("Yama-shi"!) "Yama-shi" who bets his fate on a single tree. (laughing) (Do you enter into mountains to observe trees?) Yes, and I collect various information about trees, for example, what kind of trees are available in what mountain, when an auction takes place, and so forth. From the information sometimes I offer a bid for raw materials, and sometimes I also buy what was sold in an auction later on. Buy raw materials there, and then bring them to a sawmill, and have them saw the materials into my size. Huge lumbers need to be sawn by hand, like this way. (After you look at raw materials, do you order how to saw them?) Exactly. I look at annual rings, a pattern of annual rings. And vertical and horizontal bumps as well as annual rings. Looking at them, I wonder what kind of grain comes out of this type of tree, looking at them. (As we expect, northern Japan produces better trees?) Let me see, I think northern part produces absolutely better trees. As for "keyaki," produced in Yamagata, Akita, Aomori, Fukushima and so on, mostly in Tohoku area. Well, I use "keyaki" about five to six hundreds old to one thousand. Concerning cedars, they're four to five hundreds years old. And when it comes to chestnut trees, I use at least more than one hundred and fifty year-old ones.

Right after my graduation from junior high school.
(The second generation?) Yes. My dad was dead in 1993 at age of ninety-three, and he had been working until age of about ninety actively. But since he was as old as ninety, his products weren't marketable at all. It was exercise for him, just exercise. Shape wasn't good at all, because he'd become too weak to work. But, well, it was somewhat tasteful. (laughing) It's hard to tell, well, it was tasteful, yes, tasteful. As for planing, he didn't have enough power, did he? So that he couldn't finish it evenly. (Do you still have his products in his later years?) Products are all to be sold. (laughing) What products I still have here is, let me see, this small one. That's about it. My dad at age of eighty-four or five made this one. It's a calligraphy tools box. (Did he finish lacquering also?) Yes, he did. We do all finishing procedures including lacquering. (Have you been doing it in Kawaguchi for a long time?) We used to work in Ueno (in Tokyo) long, long time ago. My dad worked there till 1988. And I started my job in a full scale here from 1979. (Did you get independent and start your own job?) Right. Because of the space for storing lumbers. If you were in Tokyo, space would be limited, wouldn't it? Anywhere. The floor space was less than seventy square meters. So it was too small to put lumbers, even if we put them in an alley. So, around 1963 we had another place to store lumbers here in this place. We have no choice but to buy lumbers. Lumbers should be dried. (What is the name of your store?) Oobuchi Mokugei. (Mokugei?) Yes. (Mr. Oobuchi, when did you start this job?) In my case...., how old was I? Well, it was right after my graduation from junior high school. (Did you find you liked it when looking at it?) No. In the old days, basically, it was quite natural for us the first son to succeed father's business. But unless you like the job, it's rather difficult, since the income is tiny. (Then you liked the job from the beginning?) I think I liked it, ha-ha-ha, yeah, I liked it. At that time when I was graduating from junior high school, my Dad was about fifty-five years old. Around 1955, the average life expectancy of Japanese men was fifty-five, so I wondered how long I could spend time with him, and I was really involved in the job. (laughing) Then, quite luckily, he enjoyed such a long life. (So it must be for about forty years) Yes, we did it together. (Did Dad teach it to you?) Well, he didn't do that kind of things. I looked and memorized. Looked and memorized, and then did it myself, and learned from experience. My Dad didn't teach so much. So I keep looking at his work most of the time. (Was he strict?) No, he wasn't strict at all. He was counting on me in most cases. He told me nothing. Not to mention when working. Even when I goofed up buying lumbers, he did tell me nothing. To lay in lumbers often results in failure. Since we can't see inside. Especially if they're living trees. (Although you buy, some aren't marketable at all?) Actually, some are. But my Dad did never ever complain. The first time I went buying lumbers, I mean, I went to mountains buying raw materials, was just after my graduation from high school. Maybe, in 1959. Through an introduction, I went to Tsuruoka in Yamagata prefecture. And I think it was a tree of a shrine. It was a cedar with a diameter of from 1 to 1.2 meters (from 3 to 4 feet). You know, the seller told me to have it. He said "Saw it into whatever size you like, into any length, and have them." And I bought raw materials. It was the first time. (Was it successful at that time?) Well, I can say it was. (laughing) Not only this successful one, you see, I got an extraordinary souvenir. I think it was chestnut tree with 12-foot diameter. The thickness was about 1.5-feet, and sawn into 3-foot width. They were almost perfectly flat. He said, about them, "If I take a single car of freight train, there must be a little extra room. I donŐt want to waste freight. Why donŐt you have these lumbers all together." And they were really splendid lumbers indeed. Buying such lumbers was my first experience. (You may have pleasure of both buying and making?) After all, as for "sashimono" (cabinetwork), the grain of wood is of the essence. So we've really got to use wonderful lumbers. And we use traditional techniques such as "kakusi-ari-hozo" (a kind of way to join two lumbers), which is one of traditional techniques. Furniture made with these techniques that are the "sashimono." (Don't you use any nails?) No. There're various techniques.

It's quite an exciting world.
(Are lumbers disappearing?) Right. (If you go guying them now, sometime nothing is available?) Well there're a few, concerning good ones. I say, young trees aren't good at all. Only trees such as several hundred-old ones can be used. These trees are matured. So even having no grains, they have remarkable characters. And they're easy to work on. Consequently, the taste of finished one is completely different. (Do brokers call you?) Uh-huh, yes. They call me saying a bidding is taking place over certain kind of material at a certain place recently. And other says "Won't you come by, 'cause I've got a certain kind of wood?" and so forth. And they don't buy them themselves, 'cause they are brokers, and tell me about ones someone else laid in. I pay them handling fee. There're various ways. And sometimes I go bidding, I take part in it myself. Bidding is difficult, isn't it? Generally, at first local buyer's designated bidding takes place, and then, we do it backed up by various buyers. After that, bidding takes place again, huh? (Are there speculative dealings?) Heh-heh- heh, there're various events including consulting before a bidding. Heh-heh heh. It's quite an exciting world. (Do they have "yama-ke"?) ("Yama-ke" refers to tendency to gambling. The original meaning of "yama" is a mountain, and "ke" is feeling) So they're called "yama-shi." (It refers to a speculator and an original meaning of "shi" is a person.) I guess the meaning of "yama-shi" comes from this kind of things. They cut trees out of mountains..... (And sell them saying there're nice things, although they're not sure about the quality of inside.) Well, sometimes that's true.

The customer liked the color.
(This kind of luxury furniture doesn't sell due to resent situation?) Well, you're right. Since life-style is rapidly changing, yeah. So, I often go and see an exhibition where house-building companies display their standardized houses. And I check what kind of products are suit in what kind of places. In the old days, our products fitted any rooms of any houses. But now, most houses are western-style. When I go to an exhibition of houses, it's better experience to find a single Japanese room. So I proposed to put this displaying shelf at a wall of an entrance hall. Then I've found that Japanesque designs suit well unexpectedly. (Such a proposal is interesting!) I offer them to put it in that kind of place and utilize it. (Do you have customers living in luxury condominiums?) Well, yes. But they live in various places, such as a condominium and a house. And some live in a quite ordinary house, and they say they really love "sashimono" (cabinetwork). I've accepted such an order now. I made with wood, but it remains unclear what kind of house they live. He said he wanted this kind of thing. So I dared to buy this lumber, because my son recently says he will succeed to my job. And actually, this kind of lumber is difficult to find, so I said "OK, let's go." I made up my mind to buy it, and did. And then, I called him to tell that I got it. Then he immediately came here, and said he wanted to have it. The price is three million yen for this "naga-hibachi"(a rectangular Japanese-style brazier). (Three million yen!) Yes. (Also a few houses put "naga-hibachi"?) A few. I say, only people who really love it do. This year, I accepted five orders from customers who had watched TV. Their budget was limited and said, "I know that the price is one million and six hundred and fifty thousand yen, but won't you give me discount by half?" Well, in that case, I choose affordable materials. As for work, I do in the same way. (How materials change?) Among the same "keyaki" lumbers, I choose one with perfect cross grain. Namely, grain of bamboo shoot. Change to these simple materials. Well, the customer liked the color. He also said I could use other materials, but other ones don't have this taste of the color, so I chose "keyaki" of cross grain. According to grain, prices vary a lot. If a board of "tama-moku" (a grain having circlet pattern) costs one million yen, cross grain does about one hundred thousand.

Well, I'd like to have it made with these materials.
(How can I order it?) In my case, I show materials, have them select from them and then customers decide a design and materials. I'm carrying on it also in this way. (That's interesting!) Yes. Customers say they would like to have certain kind of thing. For example, a cupboard, a displaying shelf or a desk. I bring and show some kind of materials roughly appropriate for them. And customers make up their mind, like saying "Well, I'd like to have it made with these materials." There're different kinds of grain. Some may say he likes certain grain and please make certain kind of thing. Contrary to that, some say nothing is unpleasant but these "tama-moku". And those people like this simple cross grain. (Which is more expensive, one with a lot of work or one with expensive materials?) Let me see, it's one with expensive materials. Regarding works, even the simplest one requires fairly amount of work. And generally I figure out a rough estimation about how long it'll take and how much it'll cost, judging from what kind of lumbers are proper for certain products and how I decorate it. There're also various ways to cut materials into boards. (In principal, you made based on orders?) Well, um, let me see, now they're fifty-fifty for the rough.

I established a showroom and a gallery.
My son has just started it, and he can do nothing at all so far. Heh-heh. Since last March, he has just started it. And now, he's in charge of sharpening a plane and planing boards, and so forth. He planes boards all by hands for his own practice. (How old?) Twenty-eight. It's a little bit late. (laughing) Though it's a little bit late, well, it depends on his effort. He was working in a company till the last year. He was a salaried worker. (There's nothing good in being a salaried worker!) Well, I was thinking that one is better. (giggling) He said "He wants to succeed to Dad's job," but I thought it was a trouble. (giggling) I was happy at heart, but on the other hand I thought it was a trouble. (Do many craftsmen say they don't let their sons succeed to their job?) Exactly. (Because it's difficult to earn a living?) It's very severe. However it depends on the way we do it, doesn't it? How to do it, that's the problem. (What do you think the good way is?) Well, as for me, seventy percent of my business partners were from a business circle. (You mean wholesalers?) Wholesalers and retailers. Most of wholesalers went bankruptcy or closed their business. Well, now, there's few store specializing in this field. Perhaps there're only two or three. So, this time, I have an idea that I set up a showroom and a gallery to sell my products directly to consumers. I think I'm taking turn to that way. Well, I'm going to set up a workshop and a gallery. (Here in this place?) Yes. Fairly numbers of customers visit me, considerably. You know, I've been rarely attending various fairs taking place here and there, sponsored by Taito ward's traditional handicrafts promotion committee and so forth. And a little while ago, I joined in one at Iwaki, Fukushima prefecture. Well, um, if I attend that kind of fairs often, and I make a little bit effort to find customers such as PR over various media and so forth, if I try to do these effort to find customers, well, I feel like I can manage to continue. There're considerable lovers. I hold an exhibition of Edo-style "sashimono"(cabinetwork) every year at a gallery. Despite recent bad economic situation, the sale is way up. (Great!) It's a really tiny space. (You're not saying that everything cheap is good, are you?) Absolutely not. Contrary to our expectation, orders for expensive products around one million yen seem to sale relatively well. (When will your gallery complete?) No, it still remains my dream. (Your dream?) I set up small one at Ueno (in Tokyo) in the past. It was on the second floor of a two-story house. At that time, I dealt mainly with wholesalers, and they just said "Can you lend them?" without buying. So I quit it. The second floor can't be seen from downstairs, since it isn't transparent. It's nice here because people can see it since it's on the first floor. (Is it one of your upsides that a person making products sells own ones?) Well, that's true. I ask each customer to choose materials, and then make a product taking care of the customer's demand and so forth. (That's stylish and luxurious!) Well, that's the way I like so far.

It constantly absorb and emit moisture.
(Do you happen to be unable to shut a door of furniture due to unsuitable weather?) Yes, certainly we do. It's very different between in a house and in a department store. Especially in winter, from November to the end of February. If I put them to a department store, wood changes its shape since it's natural wood. However dry it is, wood changes its shape. It constantly absorbs and emits moisture. In a department store, it's so dry due to air conditioning that furniture changes its shape. Anyway I always make them flexible to the change. (Is it good that in an old Japanese house they opened up windows and hung "sudare" (bamboo screen) during summer?) The best thing is such a Japanese traditional construction. (Recently, there's no house without air conditioning?) There aren't. Well, but, when it comes to an ordinary house, there may be few problems. Especially as to department stores, I've been dealing with them through wholesalers. But actually, from November to February, they destroy them. (Destroy?) It seems me they destroy them. And if something gets wrong, a person in charge of immediately returns them. And you know, right after that he asks me to bring them back. (It sounds like ridiculous, isn't it?) Totally ridiculous! I can't stand it. (laughing) (Your products are destroyed, and?) Destroyed and told to be withdraw them. (You're forced to do extra works.) Maybe the person in charge of knows it's unavoidable. But his position let him tell that. Maybe he'd say they couldn't display such things or something like that. (giggling) (Do your furniture damage if they're kept in a city or places with improper weather for a long time?) Yes, wood damage to some extent, I mean, wood expands and contracts. And to prevent these problems, I use various mechanisms behind. This keyaki decorating shelf is a sample of various ways of jointing pillars . (Are these techniques of building temples?) You're right, skills of carpenters and "tategu-ya" (joiners) diverged from those techniques. (So you can build a house, can't you?) Well, that's too much.(laughing)

Suitable for recent life-style
(Do you remember what you made in the past?) Well, I recognize them. (Even what you made in young days?) Yes. By subtle difference in how to make, such as surface, only subtle impression of a single surface. Just a small piece of surface represents each maker's feature. (Isn't "sashimono" (cabinetwork) branded?) It's rarely branded. If a customer persists to request to brand it, I do. But generally I rarely do it. (The older you get, the more you understand?) Let me see, as for how to make it, basically there's a certain technique and I just follow it. In addition to that, there's a matter of a design. I should study and devise designs suitable for recent life-style a little bit more. (Is that of the essence?) Yes, toward the future. They often tell me to study more about designing. But even though I hear they say "It won't match today's life-style, ha," it's difficult for me to get out of my style completely, since I've been doing this way for a long time. I visit to various exhibitions of houses and I reflect what kind of thing will suits to what kind of floor plan. But there's only single Japanese room, and what's suitable to such a room is low table, for example. Plus, some small furniture such as a decorating shelf. In old days, dressers and large mirrors sold well. But currently, all these things are installed in a house. There's a dressing room and everything is installed in it. That's the reason that these kinds of furniture don't go so much. So I have an idea that small furniture may sell rather well. And, concerning wardrobes, they're also installed in a room. (Young generation might try them in a new and strange way.) That's right. There'll be various ways to use according to interior plans. (Is there a potential market of female customers who enjoy looking at catalogue of mail order?) I think it's possible. (It seems that people don't know where to buy them.) That's true. At an exhibitions of Edo-style "sashimono", fairly expensive products sell, which is really good things with fine work and nice materials impossible to represent its value in term of price. Well, a product that seems too expensive to sell goes relatively well. (What's those customers' age?) Well, around forty. Relatively wealthy people affordable to buy them do. Those who aren't so rich also buy them in installments. (They might be living in a rent, but want to have nice personal things.) I see a tendency to enjoy their own life. There're quite a lot of young people looking at an exhibition of "sashimono".

Those housewives attending classes of handicrafts.
(Is that a shelf for decorating a collection?) Yes, it is. (Also made of "keyaki"?) Right. At first, I heard that those housewives attending classes of handicrafts at a department store were making so many various works that they packed them into their closets. I thought they were less evaluated, and they deserved to be decorated somewhere. That's why I made it and it's been selling fairly well. I think its market price is five hundred and ninety thousand yen.

I also deal with mending.
Now I'm collecting lumbers with this kind of grain. It's hard to see this type of lumbers. The mere sight of it is enjoyable. (Do you collect lumbers without specific purpose?) When we say a nice grain, it means a lively pattern like this one. And each grain has each taste according to environment it grew. I look at them and think of what to make with them. (giggling) I enjoy myself in doing that, heh-heh. (Furniture is a lifelong thing?) That's right. (Are older ones brought for mending?) Yes, they are. Yeah, since I also deal with mending. I tighten up the whole parts. An owner of this one has one piece of "naga-hibachi" (Japanese-style rectangular brazier) right in this size. And he wants to have another one. (What kind of person is he?) Well, he watched the TV and asked me "Mine is relatively old and something is wrong. Could you see and mend it?" "OK," I said and ask him to bring it immediately. And then, at a glance, I found it "It's not my Dad's work, but someone in Dad's school's one, or in the similar school." How to make is as same as my Dad's. It's slightly different, but it's almost the same. Well, then, that one has similar patterns of grain. And he wanted to have lumbers with the same level or more! There's a perfect sample! Heh-heh-heh. But it's difficult. A little larger "naga-hibachi" with ninety centimeters wide and seventy-five centimeters deep. (Is he an owner of a company or a doctor?) No, he looked quite ordinary, seemed to be a farmer or a man of property, something like that. At first, he hurried in his small vehicle, next time he drove Sunny (one of the most popular cars in Japan). (laughing) (Wasn't that Mercedes?) Nothing like Mercedes. (Is there any features of you in "naga-hibachi") Yes. Usually, handles of "naga-hibachi" are made with different lumber and installed it. In my case, I carve all the parts. We call it "jishiki-bori." Consequently, all the patterns are connected. (Oh, I can see it!) In this way, the grain of a single lumber shows its whole pattern. (It looks like containing stuffs in a single lumber, doesn't it?) That's the point. When I make it just in this way, this thick lumber is needed. (Will the customer put ashes into it, and put an iron kettle, and then a copper pot or kind of that on?) Exactly.

But you can't see differences from outside.
This corner is all jointed in a technique of "kakushi-ari-hozo." We call it just "uchi-hozo" in a simple manner. There're "uchi-hozo" and "soto-hozo" in "hozo" (way to joint). To say correctly, it's "kakushi-ari-hozo." I joint "hibachi" and boxes and so on in this way. The most inexpensive way is this one. But you can't see differences from outside. (What do you call the inexpensive one?) This one? It's "imo-dome." I put nothing on it.

Americans, Germans.
(Is the situation worsening after Housing Corporation started to construct houses?) No. I think it was after the second oil crisis. Since then, gradually getting worse, just little by little. (You mean there has been a change in the way they sell?) Exactly. (It used to be quite an ordinary thing that can be seen in every house?) Right. In addition to that, there were two lines of products. One that sells according to seasons, and one that goes regularly every month. Now, there's no such a difference, and I have totally no idea about what goes well. (Don't the first-class Japanese Restaurants buy them recently?) They don't at all. In the old days, pleasure quarters bought them fairly often. That quarter doesn't enjoy good time, so it has quite an impact to me. (laughing) (Do foreigners want to buy them also?) Not so much. (They don't know them?) No, they don't. I'm thinking I should invite them for barbecue over a jug once or twice a year near future. (Invite foreign people?) Yeah. (What kind of people?) I'm serving as a lecturer at a NHK Bunka Center (classes to learn cultural issues sponsored by NHK, a Japanese public broadcaster). Teaching Americans, Germans. (What do they say?) One of them is concerning quite a lot. Some while ago he brought carpenter's tools, I don't know where he had gotten them. I thought "Hey, he's so interested in!" (Is he expecting to be an apprentice?) Not, really. That's impossible. (giggling)