Back to product page japanese interview page

About the patent, well, the point is if a craftsman like me should apply for a patent or not. People might say, "Come on, you are selling your technical skills after all, so you don't have to do such a big deal." At first I thought so, too. Working hard to improve my skills, and if that pleases my clients I'm lucky enough as a craftsman. But eventually, with these goods more or less being recognized in the market, Media or non-professional people might be interested in them. Some might want to take a good look at them or even to study them from various aspects. Everyone has different thoughts after all. Then, I come to think that I should prepare for it. I should think of a business at least one time. Then being skillful as a craftsman is not enough. To make these technical skills of my own, I'd better apply for a patent. During giving a demonstration, I was thinking of it. Doing some explanations about my work, my thought was how to apply for a patent or how to make it my own. The thought was so strong in my mind that a week's demonstration period seemed very long to me. So after organizing the process of making products by myself, I rushed into the patent office.

To revive the predecessor's technical skills today:

(The idea has come to you all of a sudden?) Not really. My predecessor was working on this sort of goods. That is, the cloth used in here is silk, rather modern cloth. The cloth is not such old as of hundreds or thousands years ago. My predecessor was doing this work more than fifty years ago, about when I was born. In those days, in order to arrange (old) cloth on the surface of KIRI cabinet, rectangular shaped cloth was directly put on front surface of the cabinet. In other words, he had been making cabinets and other small furniture in style of showing such old cloth. But with the time passing, such goods didn't sell well nor weren't rare thing any more. Later, with emerge of high economic growth, I thought it was the time to be prepared with possible demands. It was only then when I noticed how such old cloth was important. As for KODAIGIRE(very old cloth), there weren't so much available. I jumped into old-clothes stores and asked to sell me some but they naturally declined. They often said that old KIMONO was for the school materials and such cloth was not for ripping into pieces. "What should I do?", I wondered. Well then, not only ornaments but all the fashion come from KYOTO, so why not bring these goods in KYOTO and maybe I could buy used KIMONO of MAIKO(apprentice GEISHA), I thought. There were many used KIMONO, having had stain removing processes repeatedly and not for wearing any more, as well as HAN-ERI(replaceable collar cloth of KIMONO), so I bought them all and cut into pieces to use on this kind of cabinet. Probably because of the preciousness of the old cloth, I changed the manner of putting cloth on the cabinet, from a rectangle figure to a picture. Instead of showing the cloth itself, I tried to show my skills. In my opinion, a traditional craft should seek the way to adjust itself to modern life. So I do engrave the surface of a cabinet in a traditional way and still I give a little change in order to succeed these skills. It's not outstanding any more with putting cloth on wood, if it's only to show the cloth itself. I thought if I engraved wood in somewhat devised way, I could draw a picture. That kind of conversion of ideas is what a traditional craft, I think.

When used KIMONO of MAIKO in KYOTO is becoming short, what comes next? When I was little, a cloth sample card at a mercer was quite large, with actual width of the cloth and with length of a sleeve of KIMONO. Nowadays it is as small as a name card though. And no same sample cards were existed. So for a while I used to ask mercers to sell me those sample cards at low price. Thus I have collected any cloth from anywhere. But there can't be hundreds of mercers. Then I hit another idea, to use printed leather for handbags. You make the leather very thin by tanning and put that on the engraved part of wood. In this manner, I have tried that several times. But due to the printed leather, goods with same design or same pattern can be easily made. This is not interesting. Also, the combination of leather with KIRI wood, it didn't work out as I expected. I felt weird because of that half-Japanese and half-Western style. Finally I came back to Japanese cloth which is the most suitable to KIRI wood. In other words, it might have been related to the boom of importing various famous brand goods from overseas. Adopting western style into Japanese lifestyle could be possible, I thought. After all it didn't work. This skill is already covered by my patent but now I use only cloth without thinking of other materials. Having used up cloth sample cards and what am I going to do now? To be lucky, I know a lot of department stores. And of course KIMONO merchants have their branch shop there. So I lay in KIMONO cloth from them since then. After many twists and turns of collecting cloth until today, I think the difficulty (of collecting cloth) also reflects the times. A hundred year cloth is often referred as KODAIGIRE, but actually what's so big deal with only a hundred year cloth, one might wonder. Looking into the background of the time, cloth reflects its time. Recently many young girls have chosen their KIMONO with TAISHO ROMAN(nostalgic color and quiet design of TAISHO era) taste cloth on their adults ceremony. I think this trend also reflects Japan's business. So a process of creating goods is affected by the times, I feel.

About a traditional craft, it's sure and natural that we should pursue the technique and hand down it to the next generation. However without thinking of adopting the technique to the current time, or without broadening the technique and your own ability, the traditional craft will disappear soon. There are still many young craftsmen but there used to be many more. With times changing, kids came to think like this. My dad works till late, ten, eleven o'clock and what's so great? We barely manage to keep our body and soul together. Then, I will be an office worker with a tie on after graduating from school. There were many kids with such thought, well, including me. Seeing parents' back, kids grow up somehow and they tend to think like that, I think. But now, hand-made crafts are widely recognized to be good and heart-warming, so craftsman can work in much better environment. So I think more successors can be expected now. Before, when children were asked what to do after graduation, a girl would say she's going to be a stewardess, and for a boy, an airplane-pilot. But now, many say they are going to be carpenters. This is also the times.

(Kazuhiko) It was a forerunner. There are various kinds of covers for a tissue paper box now but there wasn't at all back then. Even a sheet of tissue paper was valuable. (Around which year of SHOWA era?) Well, it was early 40s(middle of 1960s). Tissue paper was not popular yet. They sold tissue papers by the sheet, not by the box. (Did you make boxes for tissue paper and bring them to Kyoto?) (Shinji) When I brought the box in, they said such a thing couldn't sell. At that time, a plain tissue box was only 100 yen, while this box was 1500 yen, if I remember right. Since we were very much infected with western culture, we arranged letters of "Tissue Box" in alphabet on the box, not a picture. What they said was like this; This sort of goods won't sell at all. Do you know how much a normal tissue paper box is? Where in the world is a person who uses this expensive paper? And so on. Well then, I asked them to place the tissue boxes as consignment. Also I brought in other small goods. As I told you before, goods that don't sell in Kyoto aren't no good, or the top fashion trend can be seen in Kyoto, I've had a sense like that. The shop where I brought in those goods was of an old-established and pretty large. It stands in front of MINAMIZA(MINAMI theatre) of SHIJYOU(fourth street of Kyoto). We've had business each other since the late proprietor, so if things didn't work with this shop, then we'd better give up. Thus I thought and left those goods there. Then, after two or three weeks, orders began to came, one by one. Hey, we made it! We got orders! Since then we became extremely busy.

Seeing how business going, one time, I thought I should change my job because I got less orders, and another time, I came to think how great I am. I've led my life as a craftsman, with my heart aching, with my brain puzzling over. That's my realization. Actually these kinds of goods are luxury ones especially in the middle of economy's recession. Some might say they wouldn't need such things. Still, I'm doing my business and keeping myself busy.

Since our predecessor had begun this work, a hundred and twenty some years have already passed. Our predecessor before last was called CHOUJYURO. (Were you brothers both involved in this work since your childhood?) (Shinji) Yes, since we were very young. (Kazuhiko) There used to be a lot of craftsmen in my family. Some of them were living-in apprentices. So we could watch directly how they work with furniture. Even we were primary school students, we did have our own tools and plane by ourselves. (Shinji) I got 5(the best mark) in art at school. (Kazuhiko) As for craft assignments for summer vacation, we found it a little troublesome because those apprenticeship craftsmen always tried to help us. As a result, goods with great finish were made. (Shinji) Then a teacher would have said, "Miyata, you bought this again, didn't you?" And I would have answered, "No, I didn't buy it." (laugh) (Kazuhiko) And our teachers wouldn't return those goods, instead they insisted to leave them at school and they brought our goods home with them.(laugh)

Goods made here is reasonable in price:

(Kazuhiko) Prices of goods displayed right now are becoming lower than before. Since we're doing business with department stores and other retail shops, we know the market price; we can't sell goods in particular size at higher price. Before, at times of father's or grandfather's, it was good for a craftsman if only he made good things, no need to think of cost or to save time. So it didn't become popular. People in town could not afford to have them. They were surely marvelous goods though. (Have you thought a lot to lower the price?) (Shinji) What I do is to add up figures backward. To put it shortly, when the desired price was 30000 yen, then I got to calculate how much the craftsman's pay would be. (Kazuhiko) Some traditional craftsmen work with their optimal skill, but in that case it's hard to sell the goods out. We have to think of the balance between our clients' needs and prices. (Shinji) But it's a different story when we were asked by a client to make the best thing by all means, no matter how long it takes. (Goods in the shop are cheaper than I thought, aren't they?) When a client wants to see this particular goods, we could show him or her that. We are ready to make anything under a client's order. Also we would be pleased to make the same goods as the old one which was brought in by a client. We should take this business style from now on, I think. (Kazuhiko) If we used KODAIGIRE, which is hundreds year old, in our work like our predecessors, the cost of cloth would be more expensive than the body made of wood. So it's almost impossible to use such cloth. (Shinji) Yes, there sure are such goods. (Kazuhiko) Years ago from now when KODAIGIRE　was taking over by contemporary cloth, I had asked antique shops to inform me if such old cloth was brought in there. Then one day, an antique shop in SHINBASI called me and told me that there came such cloth so asked me to drop by. At that time, how much was it? I think he said two million yen for an old UCHIKAKE ( a long over-garment KIMONO worn by a bride). The cotton for quilting was already drawn out and it was almost something on display at a museum. Two of such KIMONO were available. So, I rushed in the antique shop and found another client whom the owner also informed about them. He was a professor at an art university. We met each other there. He asked me, "How do you use the KIMONO?" I answered, "I cut it into pieces to paste on something." Then he replied, "Oh, no, wait a minute!" The owner of the antique shop also claimed, "You won't be able to expect this kind KIMONO on the market. The UCHIKAKE is several hundred years old." So I said, "Then it's preferable for the KIMONO to be preserved. No good for cutting into pieces for my business." And I gave up to buy it. (Is it the most difficult part to find the cloth?) Well, yes. Cloth is just like pigments for us. (Kazuhiko) No one wears pink KIMONO. Even young women prefer quiet colors. Then KIMONO in such color doesn't appear on the market. You see red, purple and other vivid color without any patterns here, don't you? Since no one likes these colors in KIMONO, we dye white silk those colors. The same with the red SHIBORI(tie-dyed fabric). No one wear KIMONO in that color. (Is it a skill from old days to put and paste pieces of cloth on wood?) (Shinji) Yes, it is. It's not exactly a skill but just putting cloth on the front of wooden goods. There has been such manner to fit cloth on engraved wood. However it's only us to make use of them in drawing, just like a picture. (In your predecessor's days, there weren't any designs?) (Kazuhiko) Right. That is, before the last war, the cloth itself was wonderful with its thickness. For example, when you put a rectangle cloth on wood, you put another cloth under it and make a layer. Then it was outstanding enough because the cloth itself was valuable. (Those wood for TANSU cabinet?) Yes, especially to the world of Geisha. When you replace the cloth with the contemporary cloth and do the same thing, the cloth would be seen worse. It's no good. (The old cloth has solidity!) (Shinji) That's right. You know "TENKOKU"(Seal-engraving),often seen on a signboard or a doorplate. The way to engrave on wood is something like that. The only difference is the engraved parts are connected to a picture.

(Who designs these?) We have many people in our company. Each has an aptitude for painting. Because of various generations in our staff, various designs depending on generations come up. (Are the craftsmen also interesting?) They sure are! (Kazuhiko) We often run down the young staff's design, saying "Oh, no! What is this?" But goods with such design often sell easily. (Shinji) In former days, it was different. "Do that" sort of orders passed. But then the taste was all the same. When clients vary like "So many men, so many minds", it's also true for manufacturers "So many men, so many minds." (Kazuhiko) I know "There is no accounting for tastes" but (Shinji) how could they buy such a goods, I think. (Your craftsmen are much involved in designing, rather than manufacturing furnishings?) There are many with such idea. Of course there are many other craftsmen who are in charge of making furniture itself. (You do the work on a large scale?) Yeah, we do our work from supplying materials for making cabinets.

(What are tastes of foreigners for design?) As you know, butterflies and flowers, cherry blossoms. (Now, do traditional things have a new taste?) Yes, they do, but I don't know for sure. They say, "Oh, that's pretty." And that's it. They don't wonder how the work done. (Kazuhiko) You see, it has something to do with the environment in which one was brought up. The taste is quite different between a child who was brought up in a big family with his or her grandparents and a child who was brought up by both working parents, a door-key child. A doll shop owner often says that people who didn't have a certain thing in their childhood can't be interested in it. Nowadays, disposable goods are too popular. Such gap lies among people. Real good thing is surely good and easy to use. And yet, whether one might think of passing down the thing to his or her son, in former days it was true but now it's not so. One's own son has his idea and wants his own thing. Also a gap in price counts for the difficulties. So, especially hand-made goods have a good reputation for semi-permanent use. Yes, that's the point. (Do you put the name of your store on your goods?) No. We know these are our goods. We won't put our name on them. We have this belief that no one but we can make these goods. I think this design itself represents the name of HAKOCHO so we won't put it. Some retailers used to tell us to put our name on. But it's troublesome. We'll have to hire at least one or two person to put our name on hundreds of goods here, and it costs a lot. Thinking of how to reduce the cost, it's much effective to eliminate the existence of imitations. So now, we think like this; Any goods with this design on certain surface, or with a special added value is one of HAKOCHO's goods.

(The BUTSUDAN(a Buddhist household alter) there, can it be also used for a pet?) (Kazuhiko) Oh, yes, that makes a hit. (Shinji) I've wondered if our goods might not be suitable for human's BUTSUDAN. It might be good for pet, I thought. Then we made that small one. However on selling, it was the other way around. (Being used for human?) Just the right size, some clients think. (Kazuhiko) So we couldn't say, " It's for a pet." (Shinji) "Since my house is small, I was looking for a BUTSUDAN in this size," the client says. So we stopped making one for a pet. The ideas have been changed like this: limited space of his or her own room and the unpopularity of BUTSUMA(a room for a BUTSUDAN), and what's preferred is brighter and happier atmosphere. So we won't sell these goods "for a pet", but we sell various size of BUTSUDAN as large, medium and small. (laugh) We say it can be also for a pet if the client has a pet. (Kazuhiko) Some people bring their pets' pictures and ask us to "make a similar picture as my pet on it". (Are there any good ways to use them other than BUTSUDAN?) (Shinji) It's also fine if they are used for putting things away. (Kazuhiko) With some hooks for necklaces, it can be used for a jewel box. (Shinji) And when it's closed, no one can tell what it is. So as for layman's thinking, I try not to think, "Oh, my, such idea doesn't work." Rather, we should bear such ideas in mind. (Do you get hints from clients who come to your shop?) Yes, we do. Such as he or she wants this kind of goods. Or there used to be this sort of thing. (Then, I will write in this homepage to come to your shop and leave any opinions.) Good. (About your clients, in what age of groups?) Well, most of them are of middle age and over. Probably from late thirties, forties, fifties to much older people. Occasionally, very young girls, but naturally at the age of getting married soon, come here with their parents, saying "I really like this TANSU cabinet and I'd like to bring it to our new home." I think it depends on a sense of the family. (Kazuhiko) The other day, a young girl stopped by and said she wanted to buy a TANSU cabinet but she doesn't have a piece of KIMONO. So I asked her what she was going to put in it. She said she would put blouses and pullovers. She also asked me to make three boxes in the upper drawer, because three boxes are enough for a drawer, and to make a jewel box in it to put rings and necklaces. (Shinji) That means this type of form is what they want, I suppose. The difference between young and old generation is the content of a cabinet. It is made of KIRI, which means contents are to be well kept in it, so I don't mind what a client put in it though, I suppose. (With the change of a lifestyle, does the way of use also change?) It sure does. That is, we have to adapt ourselves to today's lifestyle in making things. Also it's us to think of the financial flexibility of the clients in business now. Then, kinds and forms of our goods should vary. Skills to be spent on such goods should also vary. Besides, we have to earn for our living. So one fifth or one forth, of whole our effort, should be spent to pursue our skills. Otherwise, these goods will be passed by and forgotten as one of rough toys. It's just the same as some famous chef's restaurants. They were given a sensational boom by media and so many people visit such restaurants at a time. Eventually, such chefs don't cook by themselves and have others cook. As a result, the taste goes worse naturally. That is very difficult point. We would like to make money on one hand, on the other, we would like to pursue what we make. If it were all for money, it wouldn't be so much fun.

I'm a little irritated. It's not enough to be a craftsman. Of course I've been only a craftsman, too. My parents have had been in debt when I was born. I think it's no good to make money all alone. Even two isn't good. If three, five or ten people could gather to think and to calculate things, it would link up with better results. Then, I won't be a famous craftsman only to make things. If I were asked which to take, name or money, I'd take money. (Skills are included in money?) Of course they are. One of the most serious problems with the craftsman is this: when we take pupils, usually in three years, those pupils can learn and make things. But just when we begin to see them profitable for our shop, they quit. Recently this happens again and again. So my policy is like this. The first graders have their job. In other words, let's suppose it takes ten years to make finished goods. The first graders must do first grader's job. And the second graders also must do their job. When we take one pupil or staff a year, in ten years the goods will be finished. I don't expect our pupil to do ten years' job at a time. What I meant is while doing such a piling up learning, only one craftsman who can make finished goods comes out. Then another comes out. It may cost a lot to hire a person now. In old days, we had to let them eat idle bread. That could be managed in those days but now, we have to pay salaries. So, it's enough for the first grader to do his job to the full. Then, a master would thank him for what he's done, saying "You've been a big help." That is, eventually, the second grader can do second grader's job and the third graders can do third grader's job. Unless a master would be grateful for that, he would be disappointed; that is, after three years, when the pupil somehow becomes profitable for a shop and the master gets a little eased, but then he disappears all of a sudden. I think it's the way around. Goods displayed here in the shop must be reasonable in price so that anyone can buy. To get money in turn of goods, which you've made from the beginning to a finish, is a superb pleasure. It's thrilling. I used to bring those goods myself into a wholesale shop and got paid, and as soon as I came home I started worrying that the goods might be returned later. Somehow they sold. I don't know if my father might have stood behind or not. Anyway it shows that I have sold my goods to that store. You see, there are goods made by our young pupils here. Then they will know to where their goods go or to whom they sell. When we make goods in a demonstration, clients around us would say, "Sell me that when it's done." "I want that, too." This makes us forget ourselves and push us to work. By that, I mean making goods in people's eyes, one's skill improves much better than working alone at home. So I recommend young guys here to go to department stores and do demonstrations. It makes one's ability three to five times higher because of the public attention. I think quality comes before quantity. When you concentrate your attention to make goods, it would be much efficient than working just busily and repetitively. So I let my pupils feel free to work out of this studio and I'd tell them to take responsibility by themselves.

In most case a craftsman is Mr. Unknown. A craftsman's name is different from a style of a store, isn't it? I say this to pupils that they can forget their own names. Put the name as a style of a store, "HAKOCHO". Anyone here can use the name. When someone still asked, "Who made the goods?", then he can answer, "It's me." Those goods all belong to HAKOCHO. I'll take all the responsibility. This is the manner how we've done. Many people don't know "Miyata" but do know "HAKOCHO". And that's enough. So if there are three, five or six pupils, the more pupils, the much effective to use a style of a store. (Are you a heretic?) What? He-he. Oh, yes. So this way of doing business makes lots of enemies. We go around most places in Japan and this style of a store represents us. When we keep on going with the style of a store, we could dominate of whole nation. Wherever you go, people know that HAKOCHO comes. In case of individual's name, there are many same names, maybe ten's of thousands of same names. And people would like to match the faces with names. We can't do in such a leisurely fashion. I'd say more extremely, even more unique name would be nicer. When you go into the countries, there are shops with names of some famous shop's name in Tokyo. Suppose, I go into countries like that and find a casual bar with a name of "HAKOCHO", it would be fun! I'd like very much to go in there, ha-ha.