My father established this business of making kabutos.

(For about how long have you been doing this job now?) It will be fifty years since we moved here. It was from my father. Before that, before World War II, my grandfather used to do the business near Umayabashi. (Was he doing the same kind of job then?) Well, my grandfather was born in 1870, and he was working at a place called Eitokusai located near Nihonbashi. He wasn't making any kabutos then. (A kabuto was a Japanese traditional warrior's headpiece, which now is used as an ornament for a seasonal festival.) He was an ornaments maker then. (What do ornaments makers do?) They make things like the crown of the hina doll. (A hina doll is a doll displayed on occasions of the Girls Festival.) (So you moved to this location when your father was the master?) That's right, we've been here since my father's generation. And so I am the third generation. (Did your grandfather begin producing kabutos?) Actually, it was my father who started kabutos. So it's only a little over forty years since we began making them. We were making steel kabutos for toys before the war. (Ones that the soldiers would put on?) No, no. They were really just toys. We were told not to make things like that, and we haven't made any since 1944 or 1945.

Yago

(What is your yago?) (A yago is the name of a store.) Gyozan. It is written in two chinese characters. One is akatsuki (meaning dawn) and the other is yama (meaning mountain). The two together are read Gyozan. (Do the kabutos have the same name?) Yes, they're called Gyozan as well. (Is that a hereditary title?) Well, my father likes haiku. (Haiku are a type of Japanese poetry, well known for their shortness.) He used to contribute some haikus to the Asahi Newspaper. And he used to use the pen name, Gyosei. But Gyosei didn't sound right, so we changed it to Gyozan. (Gyosei in Japanese means administration.) (Do you make any haiku, Mr. Koshiba?) I don't. I don't have that kind of talent.

Yoroi-kabuto were displayed after the Edo period.

(Has the traditional way of making yoroi-kabuto been handed down?) (Yoroi is the traditional body armor used by old soldiers of Japan. Yoroi-kabuto is the whole set of armor for warriors from head to toe.) Yes it has. Yoroi-kabuto were actually used in war by samurais until the Warring States period of Japan, when Nobunaga used to rule the country. After that, from the Edo period, yoroi-kabuto were displayed inside a house, more than used for actual war. That's what I have heard. (Has this change had any influence in the way people make kabutos?) Yes, greatly. (Do you, Mr. Koshiba, make the form of the kabuto first?) That's right. (And then decorate it?) Yes. And I order parts from gliders and press operators, thread from thread makers, leather from leather dealers, and boxes from box manufacturers. And I sell them all at once. (Is there a model for the kabuto?) We do try to make the kabutos look like those of the great generals of the Warring States period. (Generals like who?) Like Kusunoki Masashige, Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Minamoto Yoshitsune, Tairano Tsunamori, and people like Nambu Masanaga. We have about as many as ten types now. (Whose was bought most in the past?) Well, I would say Takeda Shingen. (So people were in favor with him?) That's right. (Have there been any particularly popular ones in the past?) Let's see. (a laugh) Around the Kofu area, people wouldn't even tell us directions if we don't call Takeda Shingen a prince. So he was popular in that area. (What sells recently?) Nowadays, people don't really care what general is the model of the kabuto as long as it looks like one, and can be displayed for the seasonal festival, sekku. (So they don't care much any more?) That's the situation. (Are there names for each of the parts used to make a kabuto also?) There are. For example, there are parts called fukigaeshi, or the hachi of a kabuto. (What is this part called?) It is a kuwagata. This part here is called hachimanza, and is the top of the head. It means that god dwells there. (How many parts are needed to make a kabuto?) If you count even the small ones, it will be about 70 or 80 in all. (Of course there are parts that you make by yourself?) That's right. We patch leather like this, or pound things like this.

The people with yoroi-kabuto were staying behind.

(Is there a long history in displaying kabuto?) Well, yes. They have been displayed since the Edo period, since there weren't any war. And then, since guns were used in wars, the way they fight war had changed greatly compared to the wars of the Kamakura period. (So yoroi-kabutos are protective equipment of the days of the sword?) I would say so. Ever since guns were introduced to wars, ever since Nobunaga, they don't go to war with yoroi-kabutos on them. (Were they really able to protect the body?) Protect? Good question. They weighed around 30 kilograms actually. And you know how the people used to be short? (And the people who had these on would be sitting behind all the fighting?) I think all the fight and killing took place in the front. People with them on would yell, GO! Watch out!, and just give commands.

Seventeen or eighteen would be considered a man.

(How old were you when you started your job?) I was around seventeen or eighteen. Well, I was already helping out when I was in elementary school though. That's how it used to be, before World War II. I was made to help when I was in fifth grade of elementary school, since there wasn't enough people around. (So you were working full-time when you where seventeen or eighteen?) That's right. I was working full-time already when I was seventeen or eighteen. Reluctantly, but sill, I was doing it. (How about now?) Not like when I was young, my eyes have gotten poor. I can't do very detail works any more. (Did they start to get poor recently?) Yes, and they're getting worse at this moment. I used to sit here all day. They tell me to get more exercise, but there isn't any use in walking when I don't have anywhere to go. Haha. I was just thinking of getting more work done. (Is there any type of occupational disease?) Yes. In the past, twelve or thirteen years ago, I used to start work at eight in the morning and end at nine or ten at night. The things are called kiwamono, and they're seasonal products. So it's a problem if the customer says they don't need the product any more. That's why I work hard, even without taking off on Sundays. (Then you have especially busy seasons?) Yes I do. Around December, January, February, March. These four months are the busiest. That's how it is. And then, when my father used to work - my father was born in 1902 - there were people who wouldn't come home for about ten days after the Sekku (a seasonal festival) was over. (So all the earnings were used up right after they came in?) That's how it used to be in the past. (You and your father were working together for the whole time?) That's right. For fifteen to sixteen years.

I am concerned about the birth rate every year.

(How is this business going these days?) Well, the number of children today is half of that of 1965. There was a lot of jinxes that a girl born in the year of Hinoeuma - 1966, would kill her husband. But still, there were 2,100 thousand children born. (So you are concerned about the birth rate decreasing every year?) I do, yes. (Are there many kabuto makers in Japan other than you?) There are around ten near Tokyo. I would say twelve to thirteen in the whole Kanto area. (Are they all pretty old?) Yes, they're all the sons or grandsons of the founder. (You don't have any disciples?) No, I don't. They all became independent and things like that. There once used to be about ten of them. Even more if you include the people working part-time. (Around when was that?) 1967 to 1968. There were so many orders, we simply couldn't make enough. (So there aren't as many people who buy kabuto today?) Yes, not as many people buy them as before. (Do they always buy kabuto if the new born child is a boy?) No, not any more. The same goes to Koinobori. (Koinobori is a set of huge flags shaped like koi, or carp. They used to be displayed outside also during the sekku, or the seasonal festival.) (There isn't enough space to display the Koinobori now is there?) I guess not. Not in Tokyo. There would only be space to display Koinoboris that are about two meters long. On the edge of the porch.

There is not one easy part.

(What is the most difficult part in making your products?) There is not one easy part in making kabuto. (Then where do you judge if the product is well made or not?) You see, if a workman looks at the product, he can see at once if something is wrong or crooked. Like if one part is straight and right, but the lower part is tilted a little downward, he could tell immediately.

Yoshitsune sells best.

(Is there a reason to it?) Let me see. Compared to the others, his shape is a little high. There are ones like that of Nobunaga that don't have the horn on the head. So the Yoshitsune looks a little lively when you give it a glance. (Are the ones with horns more popular?) I would say so, yes. (Are there ones without them at all?) Yes there are. Like the one in the picture over there. That is the yoroi and the armor worn under it of Hatakeyama Shigetada. It is from the Kamakura period, and is in Mt. Ontake. That one doesn't have any horn. (Was it so because of the samurai's preference?) That's right.

The shape differs depending on the Shogun.

(What is the difference between Nobunaga and Yoshitsune?) The age in which they lived is different in the first place. Then the shape differs greatly depending on the Shogun. (What is the most significant difference?) The horn called the kuwagata. (Whose do you personally like the best, Mr. Koshiba?) I like the ones that are easy to make best. (Whose is the easiest to make then?) Uh, that would be Yoshitsune's. There isn't that much of a great difference, but it is kind of easy. I've made the most of his type. I've made a couple hundreds of them. (Can you tell who made the kabuto when you see it?) Yes, I can tell.

Studying at shrines and temples.

This is one I made more than ten years ago. (Does the leather have a quite sober color and pattern?) Yes, it has a sober color. (Do you conduct extra research when you are imitating things as old as this?) Of course I do. I actually go to shrines and temples to look at real things. I do that kind of thing, too. I have only went once or twice, but I sometimes do. (Do you find new things when you go to shrines and temples?) There are real kabutos in shrines. They rarely show them to you unless you go with a reservation. The people in the union often go. (Do you still use real leather to make the Fukikaeshi part of the kabuto?) That's correct. (Is it hard to attain leather?) Not really. It isn't that hard to get leather. (Does the leather craftsman make the patterns?) We select the patterns ourselves. (Do you come up with the patterns and shapes by yourself?) No, there is a certain book. I look through them to decide.

Small ones sell.

(Comparing the small ones and the big ones, are the smaller ones more difficult to make?) The smaller ones sell more, even if they are harder to make. I've been making popular Shogun's kabutos from around ten years ago, and they sell as souvenirs. The department stores have them on their shelves these days. They also have them in airports for foreigners to buy home as a souvenir from Japan. They have nothing to do with seasons, but sell constantly. They're pretty cheap too. (Are they made in the same procedure although they are small in size?) The plated parts are the same. We use pure gold plating. All of them are hand made. (Can't you make them using machines?) No, I can not. It would cost very much if I were to make them with machines.

Fifty years.

(You use this working stand to do everything?) I've been using this stand for fifty years now. (Fifty years?) That's right. I have ones that are even older. They've been here ever since I was in the fourth grade of elementary school. (Do they get lower as you use them?) Yes, they get lower and lower. (Are they heavy?) Well, not really. They aren't that heavy. I can't get along without this. I use this for whatever I do.

My son can do everything.

(How about the successor?) The one who was around till just now was my son. He helps out sometimes, and doesn't at other times. I really don't know if he is thinking of taking over or not. (But he can do the procedure by himself?) Yes, he can go through the process by himself. (How long has he been doing it?) About seven and a half years now. (Is that enough to learn the whole process?) Yes, he can do most of the normal things. I would say five to six years is the minimum. And then, after that, there isn't a limit.

Kabutos are strong.

(Are kabutos strong?) Yes, they are strong built. (Can one be used for the whole life?) Yes, they really can. We have a lot of orders for repairing kabutos, but they are repairs of kabutos made in 1962 or 1967. (What kind of repairs?) The horns are worn out and the plating came off. Or some of them have torn leather. (Do the boys play with the kabuto when it is displayed?) That's exactly the case. That's why I put a piece of paper on the back of the box to tell them it is dangerous for the children to play around with kabutos. We made this one too. We made it, about forty years ago. (Wow, even I want to play with it.) You see? The people who used to be children when this was made, people that are around thirty now, used to come to our store and play with this. (Do you make swords too?) Not any more. We used to make them. They wouldn't come out of the sheath easily and my father and I were often scolded. This is one of them. It finally wouldn't come out of the sheath, and so we couldn't sell it. It reminds me of the past, and I haven't thrown it away. (Do you make little parts for Hina dolls too?) We certainly do. Like crowns. We still make crowns today. And then we also make tamagushi. (Tamagushi is a branch of a sacred tree.) (Are they specially order made?) Ones that are specially different. But nowadays, we're just doing our job.

There isn't anything for the wife to do.

(Do you help out the work too?) [wife] If the store is very busy, I make meals for the people working. When I'm free, I used to help paint paste and trivial things like that, but nowadays, the work can be done by my husband and a few part time workers. All I do now is go to the bank and that kind of thing. (Do you wish the number of children born each year increases?) I do, yes. (How about cheering up the young people?) There is an event called Ningyokuyo. (Ningyokuyo can be translated as doll soul consolation. ) In shrines in Ueno. That is the case of hina dolls.

When the products I made by myself are sold.

(Are you in peace now?) Yes, I am so. Although there isn't anything exciting going on, I don't have difficulty in living on, so, there isn't a big deal in my life. I'm sixty-seven now, so I can't complain about having a problem with my body. (Where do you hang out?) Let's see. I really don't play around like I used to any more. (Where did you used to play around?) I used to go to Kamiya bar and other places. (Other places with a little more charm?) Places with charm? Well, I used to go to a lot of places when I was young. (Do you still go to the Kamiya bar?) Very seldom, but I do. (Do you enjoy your work?) Yes, I certainly do. It really feels good when the products I made by myself are sold.