Ivory work reached its height of popularity in the Edo era.
(Does ivory work have a long history?) Yeah, it started in the Nara era (719-794). Ivory work reached its height of popularity in the Edo era (1600-1868), when "netsuke" was popular (Netsuke is a catch put on the end of a drawstring of a pouch that prevents the pouch from falling off the band. A bauble put on a purse is also called a netsuke). At that time, Japan wasn't trading with any foreign countries, but there are records that show ivory was imported into "Dejima" (the only place in Japan where trade was allowed then). It was used to make musical instruments such as the "shamisen" (a three-stringed Japanese banjo), plectrum and so on, and netsuke was made from what was left. In the Meiji (1868-1912) and the Taisho (1912-1926) eras, it reached its climax of popularity in the art world. It was so popular that you saw almost nothing but ivory thanks to the first Exhibition and some other reasons. This era was characterized by Tenshin Okakura and Mitsuaki Ishikawa. But ivory cracks easily, and its use as material is limited, isn't it? And its thickness is also a problem. Due to these restrictions, it went out of the art world. This trend was seen also after the war. During World War I wasn't able to make them because of the so-called prohibition on luxury items. But when the war was over, you know, the United States came to Japan. And the PX gathered craftsmen and had them make ivory products. (At that time, many Americans bought them?) Absolutely! All the people who were able to buy them did. A bundle of ivory chessmen and something like that were produced. In this way, we gradually became rich despite severe economic situation at that time. (At the time when ivory was imported to Dejima, did ordinary people buy them?) Hmmm, I think most of the ivory products were bought by musicians and so on. (Currently, is it difficult to import material?) Actually we were able to import some this year(1999). It was allowed based on last year's revision of the Washington Treaty, because there were countries demanding to export it. It's been ten years since it was banned. (I hear elephants were sometimes killed in order to prevent them from increasing?) Yeah, yeah, so they stored ivories and offered to sell. Only Japan was allowed to buy it. (But can't you export products?) No, we can't. Domestic only. (Isn't it a contradiction?) After all, allowing to export tends to cause poaching. (Is it OK for foreigners who've bought them in Japan to bring them back?) No, it's not allowed. If you hide and carry something like this somewhere and don't get caught, you can bring it out. But if you put it on, like a necklace, I hear they won't allow it. And you can't bring them back from overseas. People often go to Southeast Asia and bring materials of personal seals, but they can't bring them in.

Still some fifty carvers are working.
(Are there traditional designs?) Of course, there are. You know, there're some photos of old products. Collectors have issued photograph collections and I refer to them. As for netsuke, still some fifty carvers are working, and they hold netsuke exhibitions. I'm afraid they price them in the hundreds of thousand of yen. We usually offer a reasonable price. After all, they hold an exhibition and award some of them to give them prestige in order to raise the price. (Is this year's import total enough for those fifty carvers?) We've gotten about fifty tons of ivory, so…. (Fifty tons!) It means we were compelled to buy all of it (ivory imported this year). You know, it may include some not suitable for use, ha, 'cause it's natural thing. (How many pieces of ivory do the fifty tons consist of?) One ton consists of sixty pieces of ivory or thirty elephants. (How long does it take to use up one-ton of ivory?) Well, let me see, as for making these netsuke, a great deal will be made. And when it comes to these sticks, I'll use them all immediately. The most ivory is used as material of personal seals. (Are your customers matured people?) Yes. As for ivory, until the oil crisis, we used to export ninety percent of it. We used to export all of them to Europe and the United States. But after the crisis, Japanese became richer, so that also Japanese were able to buy it. I mean, ivory had begun to be consumed domestically. Now we can't export at all, so we go to a department store for a special event, and sell them. (Does it sell well?) At some places it sells, and at other places it doesn't. (What kind of people buy?) Well, older people do. Some love ivory and collect them, you know?

He said "No" to me,
'cause I was short and a lefty. (What generation are you?) I'm the first generation. My master's name is Ryuusui Komada. He lived in Takinogawa, Kita ward, Tokyo, and I apprenticed to him for eight years. Then I became independent. But a few years after that, the prohibition on luxury items was in force, and then I was called up and served in the military for four and a half years and came back just after the war. At that time, there was nothing, no houses, no roads. Yet I was told to work persistently again and again. So I asked my master to share some tools. That was the beginning. (When you became independent, how old were you?) Let me see…, I was born in 1916, and graduated from "high primary school" (A school students used to attend after primary school in the old educational system in Japan), and apprenticed for eight years, you know. Maybe about twenty four. (You mean it was 1940?) That's right. (Did you enter the military after that?) Yeah, I was called up right after the Tokyo air raid. Since I was in an anti aircraft gun unit, I didn't go overseas. (Where did you live at that time?) I worked at Takinogawa, so lived in Nishigahara. I still have my "honseki" there. (All Japanese have to register themselves with the public office. "Honseki" is an address where they are registered. They don't have to change it every time they move, which means sometimes their current address is different from their "honseki".) When I came back from the war, you know, burned ruins were all that remained. Nothing. You see a lot of books on the book shelf on the first floor, don't you? I used to have bunch of books in my closet, 'cause I liked to refer to these books, but all of them burned. Someone told me to see my house, 'cause it'd been burned down. So I went there with permission from my barracks. How miserable! Ha, ha, ha. (Even though you didn't have any tools, there were many customers?) Yeah, it sold well since ivory was rare. (What brought you into this field?) What brought me here was…. I was born in Himeji, Hyogo prefecture, and I grew up there. Business in those days was bad like now, and it was awfully difficult to find a job. I had relatives in Tokyo then and stayed there. One day, a barber advised me to acquire a skill 'cause my parents had died when I was a child. So, I thought he was talking about a barber or something like that, but he said "No" to me, 'cause I was short and a lefty. So I was just idling, staying at my relative's house. Then I found a master of ivory work in the neighborhood, and he invited me to try. I liked drawing. At last, I decided to go there and carried through for eight full years. It was like an apprenticeship in the old days. (Did the master slap you?) No, no, I'm not saying he slapped me, but I just received a bit of pocket money. I worked and worked and worked all day long, and had only two days off a month on the first and the fifteenth. (What did you begin with in your apprenticeship?) I began with walrus tusk, not ivory. He allowed me to experience these things. Or I just polished other's work. Of course, it was difficult to do it myself for the first time. I began by learning from partial works. (When did he allow you to carve?) Well, after about four or five years. After four or five years, I think I had become good at doing chores in the master's house. (laughing) (The master's wife) As a matter of fact, he only got pocket money and two days off every month, didn't he? And the other days off are, you know, only New year's holiday and "Bon" (a summer vacation in mid-August). Then he became independent in April. (The master) Unlike nowadays, it was hard to take an interest in other jobs. Once I started to apprentice for the master, I grew up without making even a friend. So I didn't have enough social experience even after the apprenticeship. I finished it knowing nothing about society. But in the army, as I took a good licking, I slowly recognized what society is all about. Thanks to the army, I matured. (laughing) (How about the elder apprentices?) Yeah, there were several elder apprentices, and they actually teased me a little, as you might expect.

But we have to keep plenty of them in stock, though they may not sell.
(Do you have many items in stock?) I have a boxful of them. (Do they sell well?) Yeah, they sell, though I don't know which one will sell the best. (The master's wife) They don't sell so well now. But we have to keep plenty of them in stock, though they may not sell. Having only a few on hand doesn't make sense. (I guess you can't respond to an order and finish it within a day, can you?) Well, at a single fair, we sell only one or two carvings or less. Netsuke sells relatively well. (Do you make both practical items as well as works of art?) Well, it seems to me more a work of art than anything else. But I think I have to pay attention to our customers. Unreasonable prices won't be accepted. I think I'm a craftsman (not an artist).

Younger people can't stand it 'cause this work requires perseverance.
(What's your master's name?) Ryuusui Komada. Two of his sons are also craftsmen. (Is your son doing this job?) I have a son, and he deals with machines to carve personal seals behind the scenes. (Personal seals are made with machines?) He makes sticks by carving ivory with a lathe to use them as materials of personal seals. He also carves marks of personal seals. (When you carve, patience necessary?) You're right. (The master's wife) Younger people can't stand it 'cause this work requires perseverance. (So some went back home?) Yeah, yeah, some did. Some quit halfway through. But this kind of work requires a lifetime to master it. Though you've apprenticed to a certain master, it doesn't necessarily mean you're a skilled and excellent craftsman. If you've mastered several skills, that's the only beginning of a long road to excellence. After a few decades of experience, you'll become quite skilled. (When did you marry the master?) I got married to him in 1953. I found out these things were made with ivory for the first time. (At the time you married him?) Yeah, I hadn't known. (What was your first impression?) Well, nothing in particular. But I thought, "Wow, these things can be made of ivory…." You know, I had known only a little about dolls such as the Hakata-type ones (usual Japanese dolls). At that time, these woman's articles were popular. I thought, "Yeah, ivory can be carved into these things." But actually, nothing in particular…. (giggling)

There're only a few people able to carve patterns.
(How do you color like this?) (The master) This one was carved with a small knife. Into this part, uh, I poured, what do you call it…, "urushi" pigment (Japanese lacquer). Dissolve it and use. I think I should use urushi, but I use varnish. These colors won't fade, even when it gets wet. See, the surface is rough, isn't it? 'Cause it was carved. (What's the biggest difficulty in carving ivory?) Let me see, uh, I think carving patterns is the most difficult, so there're only a few people able to carve patterns. So we see a lot of so-called "white finishing" at carvers' exhibitions. (Does white finishing indicate a lack of patterns?) You see only a few patterns on them, don't you? (Is ivory soft?) Its softness is between metal and wood. (Meaning it's relatively hard?) Yes, it's hard, so that we can make fine works. It's one of the strengths of ivory. (Contrary to our expectations, its hardness allows you create more details, doesn't it?) That's right. You can't put small patterns on wood, ha? (The master's wife) You know, when you carve ivory, you'll hear a squeaking noise that sets my teeth on edge. I used to hate that sound until I got used to it. Yeah, it really sounds nasty. People often say "setting teeth on edge", don't they? That's the sound. I remember some of the craftsmen's wives hated the sound and complained about it.

I say nothing and just keep standing.
(How long does it take to make a netsuke?) Well, it takes some time to work out a design. But once a design is fixed…, uh, it takes about one and half days to write the design on the ivory and carve roughly. Then it takes another half day to finish, so in three days you'll see a finished one. (How quick you finish!) Yes. And then I polish and color it. Thus I complete it. (Taking all into consideration, it takes one week or so?) Right. (You never make the same thing twice?) Yes, sometimes I do. As long as somebody buys it. (laughing) Of course, there're popular designs. (What are popular ones?) I mean, there're collectors of certain characters such as the goblin or the Dharma doll (a short and fat doll that people wish on. Usually red.) and so on. (The master's wife) Yeah, yeah, this kind of customers come very often. They ask, "Do you have Dharma-san?" or "Do you have rabbits?" (Do you make some in different styles for those people?) We need to keep various things on hand. Some want horse things. (So, you sometimes sell them directly to customers?) Yeah, that's quite right. We don't have any signboards saying this though. But recently, we hardly experience these sudden visits. (They don't know that you run a shop here?) No, they don't. And we don't advertise, 'cause my husband is a craftsman. (laughing) He does nothing but his job. (laughing) Well, well, he is a craftsman, not a merchant, and quite out of selling. When he goes to department stores, he says nothing and just keep standing, ho, ho, ho. (He is standing like an ivory statue?) You're totally right! He might looks like that. He is not gonna make much effort to advertise and sell, you know. (But some people with deep understanding recognize it.) Yeah, right.

Modern dolls don't sell, even though I make them.
(Where does ivory carving come from?) From China. So, you know, most of the subjects used to be Chinese-fashion, for example a benevolent wizard. Like a Chinese beauty over there. But foreigners recognize Japanese culture as Oriental. You know, they don't understand the difference between China and Japan at all. They don't care as long as it's Oriental. (It means there's no indigenous design in Japan?) No. And the Japanese designs are old-fashioned. For example, men with "chon-mage" (a topknot, the traditional hairstyle of samurai in the feudal era.) or women with "maru-mage" (also the traditional hairstyle of women in the feudal era). Modern dolls don't sell, even though I make them. (Is "Old men" accompanied with a turtle?) Exactly. As for "Old men", usually both of them are standing. But I have one of them sit down, you'll see it over there. (People wish upon "Old men" to be healthy?) Yes, they do. It goes well, because children buy it all together to celebrate their father's eighty eighth birthday. (These days people want valuable things despite the expensive prices. Then, do you think some start to buy them again?) You may be right. (Being massive is the strength?) Yeah, that's a good feature of ivory. (I guess it would be popular if you make netsuke for cellular phones.) It might be. (Is ivory strong?) Actually, it'd crack if you drop it or bump a weak part, for example, this foot, here. (How about this one?) This one is "Maiko-san" (a young dancing girl of Kyoto). It's a little expensive. I went to Kyoto and watched "Miyako odori" (A dancing show given by dancing girls in Gion, Kyoto every April. Its history is more than a century) in order to study Maiko-san. (laughing) It's necessary to study, 'cause somebody might possibly point out my mistakes. Like "That's wrong!".

I think they'll lose the luster if you do it yourself.
(How can I take care of ivory chopsticks that increasingly get colored?) You mean soy sauce? Chopsticks easily become black, ha, because of tea or something like that. We can remove this stain by restoring, although they'll be shorter. (Is there anything that I can do myself?) I think they'll lose the luster if you do it yourself. You can remove the stain using sand-paper, but it might be difficult to polish. (How do you polish?) We use polishing sand, but recently we polish beautifully by so-called "buff". ("Buff"?) "Buff" is a machine with a motor. It sounds like whiz. We wax ivory with it.

The way it cracks obviously tells me that it's a counterfeit.
(Are there people who decorate a whole piece of ivory?) Yeah, yeah. (How about that?) Well, if you like it. The price of ivory might soar in the future. (Investment?) They're aiming it and decorating it. There used to be a boom some time in the past. (Are there any orders using these decorating ivory?) Some offer to sell them as materials of ivory works as you expect. Well, currently, there is fake ivory that thought to be made in Taiwan. A kind of paste ivory. It's so well-made that even we're tricked. We say , "How nice this material is!" But there's nothing inside at its root. I mean, one third of a piece of ivory is hollow inside it and they put a cover over it with genuine ivory. So we're tricked. But sometimes it might have a small crack. The way it cracks obviously tells me that it's a counterfeit. (Professionals don't buy them?) That's right.

We carved products with these materials and received wages in return for finished products.
(You make various things from your own ideas every day rather than after taking orders, don't you?) Yes, I've made a lot and kept this amount. In the old days, I think every industries were in the same situation, there used to be wholesalers and craftsmen. We craftsmen were given materials by wholesalers. And we carved products with these materials and received wages in return for finished products, sometimes up front. In this way, we craftsmen used to lead dog's life. But we felt that should've not been our way of life. But at first, we kept doing the wholesalers' job while I tried to stock products little by little, and then bought materials by myself with money I'd saved, and increasingly stocked my own products. And at last I saved plenty of them, so I went to Osaka almost every month. 'Cause I was not able to sell them in Tokyo where my wholesaler was. They didn't allow me to do. After a while, I'd found a kind wholesaler in Osaka. He bought my products and exported them. So things had gone on, and I got about five apprentices, and obtained power little by little. I guess I can't be well off forever as long as I just receive wages from my wholesaler. (How are wholesalers doing now?) Now they've almost lost their influence. Some are running their shops, but a few make orders to craftsmen. It can be said about wholesalers in both Tokyo and Osaka that they've lost their influence, you know. So I started to join fairs at department stores. It's been about ten years. I've served as the director of the Association of Ivory, and I was chairman also. So, you know, I was known in other industries. And I'm good at my work. I've been treated kindly, 'cause I can show my work at department stores and keep some in stock. That's how I've come to today's position. Some craftsmen who have a good skill but no stock easily get into trouble. 'Cause they have to borrow materials, and if they damage it, they must pay compensation. It's terrible, actually.

We called them craftsmen in the old days, and now "sakka"
(creators). (Are there about fifty craftsmen?) Well, they're "sakka" (creators), not craftsmen any more. They think they're artists or masters. There are many companies who have good skill such as chairman and people on committee of the association. On the other hand, some artists have skills worse than craftsmen. (The master's wife) We called them craftsmen in the old days, and now "sakka"(creators). (Like "artist"? )(Japanese tend to call artists "artist" using the original term in English. This term has a stylish taste.) (The master) Yeah, yeah, yeah. (The master's wife) I don't understand it any more. I call us craftsmen, 'cause we're craftsmen. (You're the last craftsman?) (The master) Hmmm, there's an association in Tokyo, you know, it has forty to fifty members. And each of them has a specialty, for example, chopsticks or personal seals and so on. Yeah. As for ivory craftsmen, they vary. Some can carve patterns on a surface, some have their specialties such as Japanese musical instruments. We're divided into several fields. (The master's wife) There're a few who carve a patterns. I know some are doing it.

I'm not sure about the next generation, what will happen to him.
(How old is your son?) How old? He's already fifty. 'Cause I'm eighty three. (Eighty three!) Yeah. (What a nice complexion you have!) Heh, heh, heh. (The master's wife) Do you think so? (The master) I think it's already time to hand over the business to him. (Does he want it?) Yeah, I trained him a little. But it seems that he wants to carve materials of personal seals and so on by a machine. (The master's wife) Well, but, we keep producing. Because without products, we can't do anything. I'm not sure about the next generation, what will happen to him. Craftsmen are leaving the field more and more. (Is this job for those who like to make something?) (The master) Yeah, that's right. (The master's wife) You can't do it unless you enjoy to make things.

We should design patterns according to the material we get.
(Are there species in ivory?) Yes, there are. There're the hard type and the soft type. We usually call hard type just "hard". How can I describe this…, it's a little bit transparent, looks like we can see deep inside. However, a shortcoming is that it cracks in dry-weather. And, as for the soft-type, they come from the southern part of Africa. Material we've imported also came from the region, and they're soft. Soft ones can have a nice luster by polishing them well. But, hmmm, I can't feel the brilliance of the hard ones. (What you make depends on the material, doesn't it?) No, it's not time to wish for more. In old days, material was abundant, so that we were able to select the appropriate material according to what I was going to make. Recently, material can't be imported, although it happened to be imported this year. I mean, if the material is little, we should design patterns according to the material we get. We can't wish for any more. (laughing)

I say, my sight has become poor.
(You're eighty three, and have no successor. Isn't that a trouble?) (The master's wife) Well, our son can't do this kind of work. Those has been a tendency among younger people to use machines. They like machines only. (Do you start working early in the morning?) (The master) No, not now. When I get to my work-place, I start some mending work, such as mending cracks. Now, all I can do is just to repair old things or add a few finishing touches. I guess I'm lazy. (You say you're lazy, though you're working at the age of eighty three?) I say, my sight has become poor. (laughing) So I went to the eye doctor. And I've gotten really nice glasses. Without them, sometimes I can't carve letters when I show my work at a fair. So I realized my sight has become poor. (Basically, you don't wear glasses?) Yes, I wear glasses but usually don't. (But you enjoy your job?) Sure, I do. I can visit many places, heh, heh. (Accompanied by your wife?) Yeah, sometimes we go together and sometimes with my daughter. From Hokkaido to Kyushu. But, you know, sometimes I'm told to go to the different places at once. It's troublesome. Then, I ask one of my apprentices to go. (Does he make the same kind of things?) Yeah, right. (Did he start his training when he was young?) Yeah, he also started it after junior high school. I think he's a little over sixty already.

If I make traditional handicrafts using machines too much…
(laughing) someone might get furious. (Are your tools special, because you're a lefty?) When I apprenticed under my master, there wasn't knives for left handed people. So I had no choice and learned how to carve with my right hand. However, when I saw or hammer or chisel, you know, of course I use my left hand. As a matter of fact, recently there are electric machines and I use them. So, unlike the old days, I don't use a saw. If I make traditional handicrafts using machines too much…, (laughing) someone might get furious. But look at this hole in this bauble. Don't you think it's totally easy to drill it by whishing a machine. In the old days, we used what we call a lathe to drill holes.