-They're talking about starting fish farming. -What is good is the color, the touch, and the lightness. -There isn't much work to do after you graduate in the country. -It's a handmade job, and so there are sometimes mistakes. Haha. -The shape and things like that rely totally on the person's feeling. -There are personal customers now too. -No rest for three hundred and sixty-five days a year. -I'm wearing a kimono, do you have a kanzashi? -There were some products in the Shosoin. -A story about a tortoiseshell product craftsman. Back to product page Japanese Interview

They're talking about starting fish farming:

(Do you have the material for tortoiseshell products?) The importing of hawksbill turtle which we use for material has been prohibited eight years ago by the Washington Treaty. So what we use now is what we imported before that. We are doing our business on what we have already imported before. (So it will eventually run out?) If the importing will not restart again, the material will run out. (Where is the original home?) The original home of the kind of turtle we use is Cuba. There are also tortoiseshell from Indonesia, the Palau Islands, and Africa. But since we only make eyeglass frames, the tortoiseshell has to thick. (Can't you raise the turtles in Japan?) The green sea turtle have been farmed for a long time now in Chichijima of the Ogasawara Islands. They're talking about starting farming hawksbill turtles too in Takeshima of Okinawa. (Can you use green sea turtles as tortoiseshell?) No, that is not possible. However big a green sea turtle gets, the shell is still too thin to use. (I heard it takes time for a turtle to get big.) That's right. It depends on the researcher, but some say it takes seven to eight years, others say it takes about twenty years for the turtle to grow. (That's a long time!) That's why it isn't worth raising them. It costs too much. (Doesn't tortoiseshell sell?) No, not today. (Everyone doesn't know about them?) That, and also, it doesn't have to do with everyday life. Japan is going through a depression, and since they aren't necessary as an everyday commodity, they don't sell.

What is good is the color, the touch, and the lightness:

(What is good with tortoiseshell?) What is good is the color, the touch, and the lightness. Take one of the eyeglasses out from the shelf and hold it, and put it on. It's light! And the feeling of it too! Hahaha. (Are tortoiseshell strong against water?) That isn't necessarily true. The luster comes off if you keep it in water. That's why you shouldn't put it on while you take a bath. (How about cosmetics or hair spray?) Oh no. They are no good. The color changes if they come on. They will become nice and pretty again if you polish them. (How about he sweat in summer?) They aren't good either. The parts that touch the ear changes its color. (But they do become like before if you polish them, don't they?) Yes, if they are polished. (How should they be used then?) Eyeglasses and rings that will have to touch the body should be wiped after they are used with a cloth. They should be polished once a year if possible. They can also be fixed when they are broken. As you can see here. Just cut this part out, put another one in, and put them together. They will last a long time.

There isn't much work to do after you graduate in the country:

(What is this here?) My son made it the other day. It is made the old way without using any metal work. We use whale beard instead of using screws. It would've been better if my son was here today. He's at Aizutajima today. (Where did you do your training?) I started out in Nippori, right ahead of here. There was a master there, so I became a disciple. (What was the reason you started?) I was born in Niigata. I was looking for something to do in Tokyo. There isn't much work to do after you graduate in the country. I thought I'd rather come to Tokyo and play around. Well, I didn't really just play around. Haha. I didn't come to Tokyo just thinking of working all day either though. Hahaha. (How many years has it been since you became independent?) I got independent in 1966. (So it's thirty years already?) That's right. (It was a good time before the bubble burst?) Yes, it sure was. I was busy the first few years after I became independent. (How long did you do your training?) About ten years I would say. I started from December 1957. (How old is your son?) I think he just became twenty-seven. He graduated from college, worked for a couple of years, and came back. It is four years now since he started his training. (He didn't like being a business man?) Well, I don't know about that, but he told me he wanted to do this job. His graduation thesis is on traditional crafts. I asked him, "Do you want to give it a try? It won't make you much money though." Then the next day, he quit his job and came here. I told him beforehand that this work won't make much money. Hahaha.

It's a handmade job, and so there are sometimes mistakes. Haha:

(How are tortoiseshell originally shaped when they come?) Well, they come like this. They are torn off. (How many turtles is this?) It is only one. So there are thirteen tortoiseshell. (They come one by one?) That's right. (I didn't know they come off like that.) That's the way they are. They come off and become like tiles. (Do you use them in a different way according to the part it was on the body?) Yes, I do. For instance, have you seen yellow eyeglasses, or yellow combs? They are made from the stomach. (I thought you only use the back part!) No, we use the stomach as well. We call them Harako. (Meaning, stomach shell.) (So the yellow comes from the stomach?) That's right. (Do they come apart to thirteen pieces easily?) Well, I don't exactly know how they tear them apart into thirteen pieces. You know, I've never done that. Haha. (Do they have a scarcity value?) Yes, especially this color. This is very expensive. (So no mistakes are allowed?) Well, you know, it still is a handmade job, so there are sometimes mistakes. Hahaha. You can't do anything about it, can you? Not like metal, you can't melt this, so we can't remake anything. So if we make a mistake, the whole thing is over with. If it was say, a gold pair of eyeglasses, it could be melted, and reused again. But when it comes to tortoiseshell, that is not possible. (So each one is unique?) Yes, and even if we make them with the exact same process, the color and things like that differ in each product. (What colors are popular?) The red ones are most popular. Like the one right there. We call them Akatoroko. (meaning red fatty shell.) That kind of color is the most popular now. You see that necktie pin with the checker pattern? My son is making those now. I have him make a lot of them now. It's pretty tricky to make them. You need to fix each one of the tiles together. (Do you fit them in?) No, not exactly. It's sort of like a puzzle, and there is a certain way of putting them together. We paste them, one by one. (What do you paste them with?) Water and heat. We don't use any other kind of paste. (Where does the checker pattern come in?) Haha, you can't tell, can you? (Do you take the inside pattern out and put it elsewhere?) No, you see, this is connected. We take what is straight and we put them together. We then shape the tortoiseshell to make a frame that fits the lens. (To make the pattern?) Yes, that's right. (Are there any parts that become waste?) However small a part is, we paste it or stick it to something, so only the carved dust is wasted. (Do you make a lot of them at once?) Yes. We make a lot of them and keep them as stock. Tortoiseshell doesn't change its form for a while.

The shape and things like that rely totally on the person's feeling:

(What does the training begin with in tortoiseshell products?) We used to start out from how to sit cross legged. Young people aren't used to sitting in that style for a long time. It is only while you eat at the longest. It is pretty tough sitting like this from morning till night. That is probably the start. (What comes after sitting?) Then comes the detail work. We go out to get things, or else, we polish. We polish and polish from morning till night. (So the shaping comes after that?) Oh, not yet. A tortoiseshell craftsman has to learn how to make the raw material, how to make it hard. I told you before that we use water and heat. That is the basics of our job. So we put more than fifty percent into this part of the work. Then the shape and things like that rely totally on the person's feeling. You can't teach someone about these things, you know? Those who are good at imitating others are good with their hands. There are some kids who make their own by imitating others.

There are personal customers now too:

(How about these eyeglasses?) The color is toroko, the shape is a Wellington. It's for men. (Is there a size for eyeglasses?) Yes, there is. That one you have there I think is a fifty-six. It's about the size of the lens. It is the same worldwide. The size of the lens, the length of the hand, the width between the eyes, are all decided by the standard. (Do the customers come to buy glasses with their lenses?) No, the lens comes afterwards. So the lens is fit into the glasses at the eyeglass shop after the frame is made. (Are there many personal customers?) Well, there are more wholesales people than personal customers. But there are personal customers now too. There are some people who come and draw their own design and tell us what they want us to make.

No rest for three hundred and sixty-five days a year:

(Does the price of the product depend on the amount of tortoiseshell that is used?) No, the color is what determines the price. Basically, brighter colors cost more. The blacker, the cheaper. We still use the unit of kin for material exchange. (What kind of a weight unit is kin?) 600 grams is 1 kin. Or if you say it in monme, 160 monme is 1 kin. (So the original home of the material is a foreign country, and you use a domestic weight unit?) Exactly! They probably come in measured in pounds. We fix them into kin. (Is there a special trading company?) There used to be a special importer, but ever since the Washington Treaty, we can't buy any more. We still have exchange between ourselves though. Selling what we won't use any more, or buying what others don't need. (Do you think the Washington Treaty is based on Occidental values?) I would rather say American. (Are you upset about it?) In a way, when I think that I'm a victim. Whales are still prohibited to trade isn't it? I hear the number of whales are increasing quite a bit now. But there are Americans who like tortoiseshell products. (So, you have a lot of stock?) Yes, I do. (How many more years will you last if you keep producing at your present pace?) Since it's a depression now, the products don't sell, and so I don't have to use that much of my material. It may last for a pretty long while. (How about the demand for eyeglasses?) It isn't really good. Then, most people don't know about tortoiseshell eyeglasses. This might be the biggest problem. It might be said about all the traditional crafts, but there are too many people out there that don't know of all these convenient goods. The same goes to traditional crafts other than tortoiseshell products. (Aren't there people who come to buy things?) There are quite a few people. Especially because we are located in a town with temples. There are customers who come for visiting graves, and stop by at our place. There are especially many people around Obon and Ohigan. (Obon and Ohigan are both Buddhist festivals.) There are seventy temples just around us. You can't even walk there because it is too crowded during Ohigan. (Why don't you place an ad on the graves? Haha.) Good idea! Saying, "we repair tortoiseshell products." (So you don't get Obon vacation then?) No, and we have no rest for three hundred and sixty-five days a year. There is a temple in front of us called the Choanji temple. They have what is called the Shichifukujin-Meguri. (Shichifukujin-Meguri is an event where people visit the Seven Gods of Good Fortune.) That's why people come and walk here on New Year's day. We have to keep the store open.

I'm wearing a kimono, do you have a kanzashi?:

This coming Saturday, there's going to be a show on Yanaka and the areas around it. There was a crew shooting our place too, so we might be on the screen. By chance, the wife of the person who is presiding the show often comes to our shop. Her home was in Negishi. The other day she came along before a party and asked us, "I'm wearing a kimono, do you have a kanzashi?" (A kanzashi is an ornamental hairpin used when wearing kiminos.)

There were some products in the Shosoin:

(Are there many tortoiseshell products shops in Nagasaki?) Yes, Nagasaki is the birthplace. Nagasaki, Edo, and Osaka are the three biggest production centers of tortoiseshell products. (Edo is the old way of calling Tokyo.) (Do people in Nagasaki still use the tortoiseshell products?) Yes, they still do. In Nagasaki, people wear more necklaces than eyeglasses. (Is it western style like other things in Nagasaki?) Yes, and it has a long history to it. Nagasaki. (Since when has there been tortoiseshell products in Japan?) This is a long time ago. There were some products in the Shosoin. (The Shosoin is a storehouse made in the Nara period which has article left by Shomu Emperor. It has more than nine thousand items of the seventh and eighth century.) (When was it first used for eyeglasses?) There is a theory that says that Tokugawa Ieyasu's eyeglasses were made from tortoiseshell. (Tokugawa Ieyasu is the first Shogun of the Edo Shogunate.) We call it the Tengu Eyeglasses. And the lens were made by a mirror craftsman. In the Muromachi period, an eyeglass maker that still exists made the first eyeglasses in Japan. They were gold framed, or made in other forms. There were some made from tortoiseshell already then. In Tokyo, craftsmen who made kanzashis and other items related to the head became tortoiseshell products craftsmen. There is a book called "Hawksbill Turtle Illustration." In it, there are illustrations of tools used by tortoiseshell product craftsmen in the Edo period, and the way they made their products. They are almost the same as what we use today.

A story about a tortoiseshell product craftsman:

There is a novel written by Yamamoto Shugoro called, "Masu Otoshi." It is a story about a tortoiseshell product craftsman. The year before last, they were going to do this story as a play, and they came here to collect data. The story is about the banning of the products because it is a luxurious thing, and so on. (Was it a good story?) Yes, especially the part about the craftsman.